Carl Pellonpaa Interview

Carl Pellonpaa Interview

Transcription note

Note: There are many interviewers here, several children and two teachers. They are all unidentified. I listed them all as simply “Interviewer” unless two of the interviewers were speaking to each other.

Transcript at 16 seconds: (00:16)

INTERVIEWER (I): …born and a little bit about your growing up and your early life’s experiences and about being a Finn.

CARL PELLONPAA (CP): I was born here in Ishpeming. My mother and father were both born in Finland. My dad in 1891 and immigrated I believe in 1913 to these United States. My mother was born in Vasa, Finland. My dad in Ähtäri (??). My mother was born in 1898, and I think she was two years old when she came with her whole family, four brothers and two sisters and mother and father. My dad came by himself. And because there was work, they settled here in the Upper Peninsula. Some Finns had immigrated prior and were friends and said, “Come on. There’s work,” which was the prime requisite. There was work, but there wasn't enough for them in Finland, and it was bad times at that time.

CP: I was the youngest of four children. I had a brother and two sisters, went to school here in Ishpeming, spoke Finn to my father continually at home. He learned to speak some English because he worked in the mines. My mother because of my older brother and older sisters were already in schools so they taught English to her. But when my father came home from work, he was Finn. I remember our first telephone was installed in one home. He refused to get onto the telephone because he knew if someone was talking English, he wouldn't be able to respond. One side light (??) of that, he was home alone once and the phone kept ringing and ringing and ringing and ringing. And finally in frustration, he picked up and said, “Nobody home!” [interviewer laughs] I attended church here in Ishpeming. It was all always Finnish services initially, but then when I started summer school at the Bethel Lutheran Church, they switched everything to English. So, I never grammatically learned how to speak the Finnish language. I learned by listening how people phrased questions and so forth.

CP: In 1952, I—well, a little bit before that—I had signed a baseball contract and thought I would get into the major leagues and go. Ended up getting shot in a hunting accident. It lodged up my shoulder, couldn't throw anymore. So then, I started in the mines. I worked underground at Cliffs-Shaft, which is by Lake Bancroft. Then, I was transferred to a mine in Negaunee called the Bunker Hill. And then they had a big layoff, so now I was betwixt and between.

CP: I should back up a little. In 1948 after graduation from high school, I started at WJPD as an announcer. I had commencement exercises from high school on Friday. On Monday, I was in radio. I thought that was the biggest, biggest coup de gras I've ever had in my whole life. I mean, I was a DJ. Well, that lasted for a while until I had signed this contract. Then, they had let me go because I was going for spring training. When I came back, somebody had already taken that job over, so that's when I became frustrated and went into the mines. Then, the big layoffs. I came back to WJPD again for a short time, and they asked if I would play some Finnish music on Sunday afternoons and introduce the song. It came across the USA in 96 in Finnish. [whole previous sentence is uncertain] Okay. Okay. In 1961, I moved to TV6. I became a weatherman. I've been in sports, movies, playing commercials.

CP: And in [19]62, the Finn show started, Suomi Kutsuu, Finland Calling. This month on the 25th, it will be 36 years old. I had served. I gave you a card (??), or I'm an honorary consul of Finland. I had served in that capacity some time ago. It's the opportunity for people who are Finnish, naturalized Finns, citizens who need help with obtaining visas, passports, birth certificates, whatever. And for any anybody of Finnish descent in this area, if they need help in, for instance, trying to get some information on genealogy, what steps to take, etcetera, they can call on me. Then, I was appointed to the transportation commission. I was on the county board of commissioners for a while. It became too busy, so I resigned from that consul position. And after--during Finn Fest, I was asked again, would you please do it again? I didn't know how to say no.

CP: So, I'll serve that until 2000, and then they’ll find somebody else. And in a nutshell, I'm still doing the Finnish program. I wake up at 3 o'clock on Thursday mornings. I go into the studio, do my editing. I go into the studio at 9:30 and do the Finnish product—finished product, and it airs on Sunday mornings. And I'm here with you today. How is that in a nutshell?

I: Good.

CP: Okay, I'm ready for questions.

Transcript at 5 minutes and 59 seconds: (05:59)

I: How did you become interested in doing the show?

CP: I think I sort of walked into it because I had done it on radio and there were two of us at the TV station at the time. And Mr. [Tom] Quayle had a travel agency throughout the Upper Peninsula. He had convinced the general manager of the station to have a Finnish program because of the number of Finnish Americans who could encourage them to go visit Finland, so my boss looked at the two of us and said, “Start it.” We had very clear black-and-white pictures, a couple of records, and that's how it went. It's been fun ever since.

I: Were you nervous about doing it on TV? Other than radio?

CP: I think we were a little bit stupid. One thing, because our Finn was terrible. I mean, really terrible. We were the laughingstock of those who could speak fluent Finn. We would make mistakes after mistakes after mistakes.

I: So, did you take a class or something to learn more?

CP: No, I just kept listening to people. If you keep listening and store it back here, [inaudible phrase] I can talk to a lot of people pretty good in Finn. I go to Finland, they’ll run away. I was speaking my father’s dialect.

Transcript at 7 minutes and 20 seconds: (07:20)

I: What types of guests are featured on the show?

CP: Well, I just had two individuals. We were here visiting the area with Jim and Jane Anderson [phonetic spelling]. They had been at a photo conference in New Orleans, and they came up here for a brief visit. He was in the photo business. The invitation is outstanding to all the people who watch the show. If they know they have friends and relatives coming from Finland, they know to pick up the phone and say anything they want, anyone that has any ties to Finn, Finland or Finnish or whatever. And it doesn’t have to be in Finnish. It's the idea of [completely inaudible phrase]

I: What would you like to talk about with them?

CP: Well, I'd like for them to talk, try to provoke a question that they have to respond to. And once they start, and if I can get them relaxed, then they just chatter on and on and then they save me all the difficulty of asking a question.

Transcript at 8 minutes and 36 seconds: (08:36)

I: As president of Finn Fest, what were your feelings about Finn Fest 96?

CP: Awesome. It was awesome. I think it was the proudest moment reflecting (??) in my life. It was the biggest and best. Actually, [inaudible word] was. [inaudible word] Probably letting everybody down who was supposed have Finn Fest, for instance, this year and last year and so forth. I think ours was the best one. But then, we had three-and-a-half years to plan for it. Going down Washington Street and seeing the Finnish flags flying and the thousands of people, wow. I had heavy dark sunglasses on. I had tears in my eyes. And I had three--my three granddaughters riding in the vehicle with me, and my oldest granddaughter said, “You should take those glasses off. They won't know who you are.” [interviewers laugh]

I: What was your favorite part about it?

CP: I think… I think part of it was fascinating, just the friendliness, all the smiles. And not just from Finns and Finn-Americans, but non-Finns who were there. They… They… It was… Everybody was smiling, shaking hands, where are you from, and it just was…

I: How did you get involved with Finn Fest?

CP: [laughs] Again, I didn't know how to say no. We attended a meeting, and whether or not we met interested people who had put in a bid for Finn Fest and lo and behold, my name was nominated. I didn't have the heart to say no. [laughs] That's how it started.

Transcript at 10 minutes and 16 seconds: (10:16)

I: When did they get it to come to Marquette?

CP: Well, we had submitted a bid three-and-a-half years before, and that’s--there’s a Finn Fest board of individuals who live in the West, Central, or Mountain Division, Central and East Florida, New England, California, Seattle, in the central area, and they meet on a regular basis and look at bids. We had submitted a bid, and they accepted it.

I: Will it come back to Marquette?

CP: Yes, certainly after the new century begins, but I’m sure it will be back. I intend to be in Africa (??) by that time. [interviewers laugh]

Transcript at 11 minutes and 5 seconds: (11:05)

I: What is the purpose of having a Finnish TV show?

CP: Well, initially it was to start encouraging those of Finnish descent to go to visit Finland to see their roots, whether it be the first generation, second, third, fourth. And I think that's still the goal that I have, in my opinion, that with the video--and if you have some relatives, you know, grandmothers, great-grandmothers, or uncles or whatever have been born in Finland, why don't you go and see? Because there are roots there. There are some your age that would be just thrilled to meet you. And then you start, and then you establish that relationship, and pretty soon we're so tied together. And now, the fact that we have people tied into the internet, I don't know, that's awesome. [inaudible sentence]

I: Do you feel it's important to keep the show on the air to spread the culture?

CP: Well, I retired three years ago, and I'm still doing it. I enjoy meeting people and talking to people. It's a great feeling to hear, well, I was in Finland, or I'm going to Finland. [claps] There you go.

Transcript at 12 minutes and 30 seconds: (12:30)

I: At Finn Fest, how did you--what did you think about having the largest sauna in the world?

CP: That one really knocked me out –knocked me off of my socks because I didn't know what to expect. But I have to tell you also that Guinness did not accept it as the world's largest sauna. For what reason, I don't know. But we have now come to believe that Guinness had no way of determining what was a sauna, what could be the largest sauna, no matter what credit word we gave them, video, et cetera. But I should tell you also that if Finn Fest comes back to this area again, they will have even a larger sauna. That's been guaranteed to us.

I: Wasn't there a line that had to be formed…

CP: Oh, yes.

I: …because it was so crowded? How many people could fit in there?

CP: Well, I think they could have fit a thousand. They got just shy of 700 because the line was moving so slow and they had to get moving.

Transcript at 13 minutes and 39 seconds: (13:39)

I: Of the cultural traditions that your parents taught, what did you see preserved at the Finn Fest?

CP: Language. Despite everything being conducted in the English language, there's a lot of individuals who support the Finn. This little book that was prepared by a woman from the L’Anse (??) area who came home and didn't even get to Finn Fest herself treasured some of the music that she learned as a kid and was passed on to the children. I think that's the biggest fact about it, the language is retained.

Transcript at 14 minutes and 24 seconds: (14:24)

I: What changes have there been in the number of people that speak Finnish?

CP: Well, I would say they have lessened considerably because of, shall I say, intermarriages, Finn marrying a Swede or an Italian marrying a Finn, a Finn marrying a Greek. I married a Swede, so my children don't speak Finn. They can sing some Finnish songs, but I could not sit and talk Finn to them because my wife would go, “What are you talking about now?” So, that's the--I would say that's the reason it's disappearing, but there is a rebirth because of so many individuals. I know up at Michigan Tech and at Suomi College, there are classes teaching Finnish. And in Minnesota, there are school colleges teaching Finnish. Again, in those areas where there are roots, it's coming back.

Transcript at 15 minutes and 27 seconds: (15:27)

I: What do you enjoy about Finnish school of music?

CP: Music, I love music. It doesn't have to be Finnish either, but if I hear a polka [taps out a rhythm on the table], my hands are going or my feet are going. Finnish music I miss because my dad played small--we called it a two-row accordion--and he would play, and I would tap my feet and clap my hands. What did you… [trails off into something inaudible]

I: What do you enjoy about the food?

CP: Food? Well, Finnish food generally is very bland. If you want bland food, try to compare it with eating something Mexican and something without any spices. When I grew up, it was Depression, so we had a lot of potatoes, a lot of salt pork, bacon, salmon was plentiful, and my mother would fix it with a little bit of extra spice to improve what the Finns had done by themselves.

Transcript at 16 minutes and 45 seconds: (16:45)

I: What were your parents' names?

CP: Edith and Carl. Actually, my real name is Kaarlo, K-A-R—K-A-A-R-L-O. My father's name was the same, and both fathers' names was the same. And my son was the same, but they’d shorten it to Carl, and some—in Finnish, they’d say Kalie, K-A-L-I-E, or Charles.

I: How long did it take to get Suomi Kuutsu on air?

CP: On the air? A couple of days.

I: Did you have a guest on the first day?

CP: Yes. Her name was Anna Rampage [phonetic spelling]. She was a teacher in the Negaunee school system. She just died here not too many years ago. She was my first guest. First guest. And she did not Finn (??) much better. [interviewer laughs, making next sentence inaudible] I remember everything we would say, asking for a response like, “How was the weather?” Her response was [inaudible Finnnish word]. I had never heard the word before, [inaudible Finnish word], K-I-B-A [this spelling doesn’t seem to match what he's saying]. Ohh. So, we [inaudible word] the first day, and it was live. We got up at six o'clock in the morning. I had to be at the studio to do the show live, and the records were on a turntable in the control room. Some were 78 rpm records. Have you ever seen a 78 RPM record? You put it on the turntable, and you got to get it going and drop the needle on it. And then, you bring it up at an angle so that there’s some sound. And suddenly, it would come around and go [makes screeching noise]. That went on the air. But it was an album, and you’d give the director, the engineer, directions: side one, cut three. They’d drop it on there, and they’d just miss it. They’d pick up the last part of cut two.

Transcript at 19 minutes and 7 seconds: (19:07)

I: What is the significance of the bonfires?

CP: Well, it goes back to days before Christianity came to Finland. They believed that the bonfires prevented the witches to come. And still today, you would be surprised how hundreds and hundreds of people--so now this humongous bonfire and, like, they’re mesmerized. But that’s the view, the story that I was told. Lets see if I’ve got anything on Midsummer Day. Okay, this is an old day celebrated on the Friday night and Saturday between the 20th and 26th of June marking the longest day of the year, which is pretty long in Finland. I mean, there is no darkness at all. It's daylight all 24 hours. It's also flag day and the day of John the Baptist. Finns leave cities and towns en masse to spend Midsummer in the countryside. It doesn’t say much about the bonfire, sorry, but that’s…that’s the story that I had received. The witchcraft. The witches.

Transcript at 20 minutes and 26 seconds: (20:26)

I: What other big celebrations do they have?

CP: Well, I have a book. If you want to keep this, and then I'd like it back because it's the one I have. Independence Day is December the 6th. They became independent in 1917. Christmas, New Year's Eve, Easter. Runeberg Day, which is February 5th, Finns pay tribute to their national poet, J. L. Runeberg. Laskiainen is Shrove Sunday and Shrove Tuesday, celebrated seven weeks before Easter by doing winter sports, mainly sledding down the nearest hill, eating pea soup, and savoring special pastries. You know pea soup?

I: It's pretty good.

CP: And May Day is on the first of--it’s on the last day of April and the first of May. Then Midsummer, as I said earlier. Those are the big holidays in Finland.

Transcript at 21 minutes and 33 seconds: (21:33)

I: Do you have a favorite holiday?

CP: Mine is Midsummer.

I: Why?

CP: ‘Cause it's summer. [laughter] If you have a chance to be in Finland on that three-day period, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, absolutely no darkness, it's just awesome. The mosquitoes are hungry, but that's okay. But there's--on Friday, you gather, all kinds of good things to eat. And the light. If you look at the picture, do you know how high the Ski Hall of Fame is? Well, next time you look at that, that's how high some of the bonfires are constructed. And then when it starts to burn, I mean, the flames are way up in the sky. People are surrounding that, and they're singing, and there's a platform where there's folk musicians playing music. You're hobnobbing with your relatives or friends. Again, everybody's smiling. Then, on Saturday--and they stay up all night. They stay up all night [pounds table]. Let me tell you a quick story. We were--my wife and I--were with our relatives, all people our age. And we were dancing, and we'd go here and have something to eat, go back over here for another dance, then over here. And no drinking. That was what really blew my mind. I thought, well, everybody’s going to go up there, and there will be bottles all over the place. No way. At least, not that--I don't know, but from what I’ve experienced. Four o'clock in the morning, we're still there. And they finally say, well, we'll go back to our apartment. Now there are four--six of them and my wife and I. We go up to this fifth story apartment, and we go in this door and look up at the [inaudible word] out there. It’s a little--it’s Finland. My cousin's husband said, “Come on down! We’re gonna light the sauna.” [inaudible sentence] Well, you know, Midsummer, you got to go sauna. Oh, okay. He filled a woodbox full of wood. [inaudible sentence] So, we're sitting up in this apartment. I said, okay. We'd like to go. Okay. You know, I open that sauna door. It was so hot in there. I went right to my knees. My wife walks in. Da, da, da, da, da, da. She's having a good time. I take a [inaudible word] and put it on my head, and I'm done. So about 20 minutes later, we go back upstairs. And I said, “Why did you go swimming? The lake was right there.” I said, “I have to sleep.” “You don't need to sleep.” “Of course, I need to sleep.” I said, “No, I don't swim anyhow.” It was fun. And then on Sunday in the summer, there are religious services, different churches, and every area is decorated. We decorate for Christmas. They decorate with birch branches all over the place, on ships, on taxis, on sidewalks, on stairs. It was just beautiful.

Transcript at 25 minutes and 11 seconds: (25:11)

I: Is the religion important in Finland?

CP: Yes and no. It's important on special days, Easter and Christmas and so forth, but the church there is part of the state. It's a state church, so people have to pay taxes to support the church. It's not like here. And all the tourists. In fact, this past August, we were in Finland, and they took us to three magnificent churches. And everyone who was our guide said very few people go to church here. Why are there so many churches? They couldn't answer.

Transcript at 25 minutes and 56 seconds: (25:56)

I: When do you speak the Finnish language?

CP: Whenever someone says something to me in Finn, and my ear is tuned to Finn as well. I listen carefully. And we were walking the streets of New York City on Manhattan on 51st Street, a big street fair, thousands of people. And we were walking up the street. And all of a sudden, I hear someone talking Finn. I checked the group. [claps hands] There was four people. So, Estonian is a language very similar to Finn, so I wanted to get real close and make sure it was Finn. And so, I followed them for a while. I followed them for a while. I finally stopped, and I said, [says something in Finnish]. It blew their mind that someone would accost them in New York City and say something in Finn.

Transcript at 26 minutes and 55 seconds: (26:55)

I: Are there--is there a lot of interest in the trips you take to Finland?

CP: Yes, I would say so. The first trip was in 1962, and the last trip was just last year in 1997. So, I would say--I'm guessing now. I haven't really counted--but probably [pause] 650, 700 people have traveled with me to Finland or Scandinavia.

INTERVIEWER 1 and 2: How long—

I 1: You can go ahead.

I 2: How long do you stay in Finland at a time?

CP: Well, in [19]92, [19]94, it was a two-week junket. That was all in Finland. This year, we were just there for four days because we were in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, then over to Finland. So, it’s [inaudible word]. I have been to Finland 23 times myself.

Transcript at 27 minutes and 56 seconds: (27:56)

I: Have you ever been back to where your father and your mother were born?

CP: Yes, I have visited both areas. I slept in the same bedroom that my dad slept in. I went to visit the school where he went to school. I had meals in the same kitchen where and the dining room where he had meals when he was growing up. That's when I think I really felt the tremendous--the hair on the back of your head, the impact I had. Being there in that house made me very proud of my heritage. I--As my mother left when she was only two years old, so there were very few groups (??) that we know of in the city of Vasa.

Transcript at 28 minutes and 51 seconds: (28:51)

I: Did your parents leave like grandparents behind?

CP: Well, yes, there were grandparents, but they were deceased. I still have one aunt living in Finland. My dad's sister is still living. She is approaching 90 years old. Nine first cousins. They were all very good friends, and we communicate as often as we can. And then, their children are communicating with our grandchildren. And so, it's great fun.

Transcript at 29 minutes and 22 seconds: (29:22)

I: Did your father know how involved—was he alive when you—did he know how involved you were?

CP: Well, he died—the program started in [19]62, and he died in [19]69, so he did have a chance to go (??) out (??). In fact, they lived right down the highway from the TV station, so. That little pond that’s on the highway, the side of the highway, and so I would go for a critique after the show.

Transcript at 29 minutes and 53 seconds: (29:53)

I: On your first trip to Finland, did you remember something that you especially liked and you went back to see and visit every other trip?

CP: Well, the first time in 1962 when I went to Finland, Jynti Salermo [phonetic spelling] and I were the co-hosts of the program, and we were exhausted because you leave in the evening and you get there this morning. So, we'd lost a whole night's sleep, so to speak, so we were exhausted. We came to a very structured establishment, a hotel, very, very old, and I had taken an electric razor with me, and we were gonna go down to dinner after we'd had a nap. And I looked all over where I could plug in my razor. No such place. They had different current. So, I hit the buttons alongside the door. This would—somebody’s not going to (??) because of me. And I'm standing there in my underwear. What the hell do you want? I forgot I was in Finland. So, I--different sorts of power. So, needless to say, I couldn't shave. I get down, look at the menu, and everything was in pure Finn or in Swedish because there are two official languages in Finland, Finnish and Swedish. And I spotted one word, K-A-N-A, which is chicken. I remember that. It’s the worst chicken I ever had. [interviewers laugh] So, that first day was a disaster. I would--But the next day, I got to meet the relatives. That was awesome.

Transcript at 31 minutes and 45 seconds: (31:45)

I: What in Finnish influence do people see every day that they may not realize?

CP: Sauna. Some of the names you might see, pannu kakku, pancake, or [inaudible Finnish word]. I think sauna’s the biggest here. In fact, I just had a sauna here about two o’clock this afternoon.

I: What is the importance of the sauna?

CP: In order to replenish the spirit, it takes... If you’re troubled one day, your mind is overburdened with whatever, it might be too much schoolwork, or whatever, you go into a sauna, and you start throwing water on the rocks, and it gets hot. Pretty soon you forget all about those problems, and you're concentrating on, oh my gosh, it's hot in here. [interviewers laugh] That’s pretty good, put some more on there. Sitting in the sauna, you forgot all your problems. [inaudible sentence] That’s why I take a sauna.

Transcript at 33 minutes and 10 seconds: (33:10)

I: Do you have any idea what the... You know what the viewing audience of Finland Calling might be? Have there ever been any surveys or…?

CP: Well, they take surveys every Fri—every February, every May, every July, and every November. There are survey cards passed out to—I forget the number of people—and you fill out your card as to when you turn your TV on, what program you watch, and so forth. Well, I've always had the feeling that if you're not Finn, you're not gonna be watching the Finland Calling program, so what relevance does it have--the survey have? There are times where the numbers are just overwhelming, and then I said, well, everybody who got a card is a Finn, so, they’re—naturally, they’re filling it in. So, I'm guessing probably averaging from 18 to 25,000 who watch the show on Sunday mornings. That's a guesstimate.

Transcript at 34 minutes and 7 seconds: (34:07)

I: Are there other programs similar in other parts of the country?

CP: I don't. I can’t say about in Spanish. I'm sure there are. There are Spanish newscasts, I’m sure, in Texas, New Mexico, and other states along the borders.

I: In Finnish?

CP: No. It’s the only Finnish program in the US.

I: Does it air throughout the USA, too, or…?

CP: No, just here in the UP [Upper Peninsula].

I: Are there any other Finnish-language papers being published besides the Duideis [phonetic spelling; can’t find any paper close to this name]?

CP: Yeah, the Finnish-American Reporter. The America [inaudible word]. [lists several other Finnish words that I can’t make out] So, there's four or five major newspapers still being published.

I: Do you subscribe to any of these?

CP: No, no, no. Just to the Finnish-American Reporter. I have to be honest. I do not read Finn that well. I do not write Finn that well. If I'm forced to read something in Finnish, I'll do it, but it's a struggle because of the ows and the oohs and double Vs double Ts double Ys.

Transcript at 35 minutes and 36 seconds: (35:36)

I: Is it a hard language to learn?

CP: Yes. Very difficult to do so. I had a guest who was from Namibia, Africa. He was a Black man. The nicest man I have ever, ever talked to on the program. He sat right next to me on the Finnish show, and his Finn was better than mine.

I: How did that happen?

CP: Well, Finnish missionaries have gone to Namibia and brought religion, Christianity, into that country. So, there's--there are Africans, Namibians, with Finnish names, Toivo, Gunnar, or whatever. It's unbelievable. He told a story. He said about the Finnish languages. The ahs and the oohs are very difficult. When you see the umlaut, the two dots over an A, it is not ah, but eh. And then Y, ooh. And it's difficult. If you practice and listen--he told a story. He had been educated in Finland, and he ended up going into science. He became a patient in a hospital where no one would speak to him because he was Black, and everyone assumed he couldn't speak Finn. So, one nurse would say to the other, “Have you seen that chocolate boy today? Have you seen that little nigger boy today?” Nothing nasty, but have you talked to the chocolate boy. So, this went on for several days as he was recovering from the surgery. One day, several friends of his came from other churches in Helsinki and immediately said—and there was a nurse present [says a few sentences in Finnish]. Da-da-da, da-da-da in Finn, and [gasps] she went skedaddling out of the room. Pretty soon, the head nurse came in after they had gone, “Why didn’t you tell us you talked Finn?” He said, “You didn’t ask me.” [interviewers laugh] Great fun.

Transcript at 38 minutes and 0 seconds: (38:00)

I: Are there other cultures that have a fest? Is there like Irish fest or…?

CP: Well, if you go to Milwaukee, you'll find German fest, Italian fest, Scandinavian festivals.

I: But they're not educationally--I mean, I've been to Milwaukee, to like the German fest. They're more vendors and--you know what I mean. This to me--

CP: Right, fun time.

I: Yeah, right. More entertainment.

CP: Finn Fest has been organized in such a way that we can pass on our…our history to the young people, to retain that culture of Finn. And that's, I think, is the biggest credit we have with Finn Fest, and you can both attest to that because you were there and part of it. And it was in Minot last year. It will be at Portland, Maine, or Gorham, Maine this year, structured in such a way that there is a learning experience. And if we don't reach out to the young people, it's gonna be bad.

Transcript at 39 minutes and 3 seconds: (39:03)

I: Part of our mission in doing this particular project is not only to look at migration and the Finnish immigrants' experience in coming to America but also to look at what the immigrant world was like when they came here, and then what's happened to the second generation, as yourself who lived in two worlds of your parents who were Finnish immigrants and also as a Finn-American. And then your children, the next generation, or as we look now to even the fourth generation of Finnish-Americans. Even though all of these girls right here have last names that it's--except for Ponninen [phonetic spelling]--which would sound like of other nationalities, they all have Finnish background, and they weren’t chosen for that reason. It was just after we began our research that we found out they all had—

CP: Roots.

I: Finnish roots, yeah. What, in your opinion, is the greatest thing that we can do as Finnish-Americans to preserve that culture for this next generation that's coming?

CP: Well, I think that somehow, someway, the language can’t be deducted because if you know the language, you will be a Finn. That's my strongest belief. And the retention of the Finnish culture, etcetera. You can have saunas, you can have cafilaiback [phonetic spelling; no idea what this word is], etcetera. You can celebrate Easter and Christmas as in Finland, but if you can't speak Finn--and it doesn’t have to be fluently, but to have the ability to converse with your family--I think that’s [inaudible word]. That’s all.

Transcript at 40 minutes and 57 seconds: (40:57)

I: You mentioned Finn Fest as probably the greatest effort in preserving the Finnish heritage. What kinds of responses did you get back from fourth-generation Finnish-Americans who came to Marquette to participate in the festivities?

CP: Yeah, I think that was the biggest reward in that. It was not just that third but fourth and fifth who brought their kids, and they were just overwhelmed. And again, the big smiles and that, “Hey, when I get back, I'm gonna do more. I'm going to get on the net, on the Internet, and I'm gonna do this. I’m gonna go visit Finland, and—" It's sort of a charging the battery. That’s what we felt. And we're still here today.

Transcript at 41 minutes and 46 seconds: (41:46)

I: When you spoke of the other nationalities who have ethnic festivals in Milwaukee--for instance, I have a friend who participates in the Italian festival, and it's mostly eating and music. I think they're mostly for entertainment. Part of Finn Fest has a--had a big scholarly segment to it, which was chaired, I believe, by Dr. [Jon] Saari, and I think that--would you touch on the scholarship of Finnish ethnic history as far as other nationalities or what you see as the Finns taking a leading role?

CP: Well, I can't answer that from the standpoint of Finns taking a leading role because I can't speak to the other nationalities. I'm sure the Irish have, and the Germans, and so forth. Whether we're taking a leading role, I don’t know, but I think it's important. And that was the reason for our funding and our determination [inaudible word] set up a Finn Fest. If there is a profit, it will be 40 percent of the proceeds that would go to Suomi College, 40 percent go to Northern Michigan University for continued studies of Finn, or Finnishness, and then 20 percent go back to Finn Fest USA. That was our goal. And we succeeded by spending--or sending almost 30,000 to go to Northern and to Suomi College. So, that's for the continuing use.

Transcript at 43 minutes and 22 seconds: (43:22)

I: What types of programs are available in exchange for, say for instance, Fulbright scholars to go to Finland? Do you know?

CP: I did an interview with a woman who is out of Washington, D.C., who is the expert on that respect and [inaudible word]. I did talk to her once, and her name escapes me. There is now a great tie with Suomi College and Corview [phonetic spelling] and Arch Academy [phonetic spelling] there and another school just north out of Helsinki, where finally it's taken a lot of effort to get this result. I think the Fulbright aspect of it is there's a number of people here in the area who have gone through Fulbrights to Finland. I don't know all the particulars of it.

I: Are there other colleges? Like, you said Suomi College offers Finnish-speaking classes. Are there other colleges that offer that?

CP: Yes, at the University of Minnesota. I think they have classes there. Minnesota-Duluth has classes. There is a school in California--I don’t remember the school at the moment--where there are some members of the faculty are from Finland and are happy to teach the Finnish language. My arms (??) are getting tired.

Transcript at 45 minutes and 6 seconds: (45:06)

I 1: Do you—

I 2: Oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead.

I 1: Do you have any Internet pen pals from Finland?

CP: Well, I'm not on the Internet myself, but I have a webpage from TV6 that I call Ramblings with Carl. I type up some specific incidents that are--or plans that are--going on and put the page in (??). But boy, I get emails. They’re [inaudible word] from every time we go into the studio from people. In fact, there’s one--there’s a kid by the name of Manninen [phonetic spelling] who is teaching in a school in a place called [inaudible Finnish word], Finland, and he wanted to--he sent me a message and wanted to know if I would be interested in having some interviews with Yoopers while they’re studying in this town. Do so. Put it on video, and I’d be happy to use it. I hope to be on the net sometime this summer. So far, not really. I just had a flash of another father (??) on the net. I don't know. I'll see. [interviewers laugh]

Transcript at 46 minutes and 18 seconds: (46:18)

I: You say the word sisu, and you hear the word, what does that mean to you? You know, [mutters something inaudible]

CP: Well, I guess if you spell the word g—[tape cuts] If you want to jump off Suicide Hill. Or it takes a lot of courage to finish your schooling and continue your education and going to university or college. It takes sisu to continue this project. It's not easy. You tell yourself [pounds table], “I’m gonna do it,” that's sisu. It takes sisu to go into a hot sauna and sit there and not cringe when somebody throws water on the rocks, as I have done so many times. There are so many ways to use the word sisu that--determination, forbearance, courage, guts.

Transcript at 47 minutes and 20 seconds: (47:20)

I: How did the early immigrants display those qualities?

CP: By existing. My father came to this country, as an example, could not speak a word of English and came through Ellis Island. How he got from there to this Upper Peninsula, I don’t know. But then, got a job in the mines. And that understanding what the shift boss or the captain said, you know, you just follow the law. To know when the paycheck came where to go. Not to go to the tavern to cash it because it would be gone, as some did. And not just Finns. The interesting thing about the Finns, though--as even today it's continued--they would gather in their own circles so they didn't have to worry about learning how to speak English. They could talk Finn to each other. That's how they started the churches in this area. The Bethel Lutheran Church is Finnish by the start. The stores that they shopped in, they had Finnish goods. But I've often thought of my dad coming over and not being able to speak a word of English. How did he make out? He knew. I had the task of being an interpreter for an Olympic gold medal winner. His name was Veikko Kankkonen. He was jumping at Su--at Pine Mountain. I was his interpreter from Thursday through Sunday, and we were having breakfast in the Dickinson Hotel this one morning. And the waitress came over and said, “Would you ask him a question for me?” She said, “How did he manage to get all the way from Finland to Iron Mountain, Michigan not speaking a word of English?” Like my dad. So, I interpreted the question for him. How did you--And his response was, “Well, I didn't have any problems. Those who came to talk to me had problems.” And then, she came back the next day at breakfast and asked him how many people speak English in Finland. And again, he rubbed his jaw. He said, everyone and (??) one (??), but you can never find them.

I: [interviewers laugh] Quite the sense of humor here.

CP: Oh, yeah. [pause] Who's next?

Transcript at 50 minutes and 17 seconds: (50:17)

I: What Finnish values do you pass on to your children?

CP: Well, being on time, getting to a place on time or even early. If I have a Finland Calling dance (??) and I say the start is 1 o'clock, or I'm going to show a Finnish video at 1 o'clock, they're there by noon time or even earlier. They've got to be there on time. That's something, I guess, I pass on to my kids. They're never late. I guess they learn from the very get-go that you're never late. Pride in their heritage. They each had a chance to visit Finland and meet their relatives, so that enhances that pride that they have now. [pause] The language is something that they haven't achieved yet, but they're working on it. And they all love Finnish foods. The recipes that have been provided, and the pancake, the large--they call it pannu kakku. Anybody have that?

I: Yeah, I love it.

CP: It's good stuff.

I: I just ate it a few days ago.

CP: Did you? [all laugh] Why didn’t you call me up? I would have come over. [all laugh; long pause]

Transcript at 52 minutes and 18 seconds: (52:18)

I: [inaudible word] ask about the literacy rate. Remember we talked about it? Do you remember? Do one of you want to re-phrase the question?

CP: Literacy in Finland?

I: The lack of illiteracy. I don't know how you want to phrase it.

CP: Well--

I: Theirs is the most--

CP: I think it's probably the highest in the world.

I: It is the highest.

CP: It's the highest in the world.

I: Why?

CP: Because you do not have a chance to get married if you do not know how to read or write. You do not have a chance there. We had a play at Finn Fest, Suusipalli [phonetic spelling], and the story of that particular play dealt with an area of Finland where this young minister was assigned to go, and he discovered that they were women living with men, and he was horrified because they had got married without knowing how to read or write. That's what sticks in my mind. And there is a great deal of pride in the Finns that everybody knows how to read and write. They start their schooling at age seven. And the libraries. More books are read in Finland, I think, than any other country in the world, percentage-wise of the population.

Transcript at 53 minutes and 55 seconds: (53:55)

I: How is their schooling different? Is it longer?

CP: I've never really been at a Finnish school, but they really have to work hard to get into a university, and they have to be up there at the top. They may have the technical schools that they can go to and so forth. But any…any… If you have a chance to ever talk to a Finnish exchange student, put the bite on them and ask them. Because they come here to attend a year of schooling and they don't take books home. It's a slam (??) for them. And when they're in their first grades of schooling, they're already learning Finnish and Swedish. Then, there's German. Then, there's English. They have four or five languages that they're learning when they're just starting school. [unclear phrase]. That's the time for them to learn it.

Transcript at 55 minutes and 2 seconds: (55:02)

I: How can we preserve the culture, the Finnish culture in the Upper Peninsula, in Marquette County?

CP: How can you preserve it? Hm. That's a good question. Whether or not the Finn county program will continue, I don't know that. So, I would say that's not one vehicle to rely on. I would think from the schools. If there's enough interest of mothers and fathers to ask whether it can be a part of the curriculum, and there actually should be. We have a Finnish-American Historical Society or Heritage Center in Hancock at Suomi College. We really don't. We have the Marquette County Historical Museum here, but we don't have such a facility in this county. Maybe we should have something like that, but that means a lot of work and a lot of money. But whether or not we can do it, I don't know. I guess I really can't answer that question. I'm getting up to an age now that I ain't gonna worry about it. [all laugh; long pause]

Transcript at 56 minutes and 36 seconds: (56:36)

I: Are there places that do keep the Finnish culture like you were talking about?

CP: The Finnish-American Heritage Center is well-equipped. In fact, they have tied in now the ability for a person to go up and do some genealogy research on their family. It's through the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City as well as the Institute of Migration out of Turku, Finland. Hopefully, they'll have all of Finland covered someday soon. But right now, it's the center, central area of Finland that they're tied into now. They can get on the computer and do some research on their families.

Transcript at 57 minutes and 20 seconds: (57:20)

I: Have you found that as a result of Finn Fest that there's been an increased interest in learning the Finnish language by people in this area?

CP: Yes, I think there has been a resurgence of it because of that Finn Fest, and I guess because of Finland Calling. I should include [inaudible word], too, because whatever I say in Finn, I will translate into English immediately and say as best I can, but people are picking up. And then, they're getting in contact with their relatives. and if their relatives can't talk English, boy. [unclear phrase].

Transcript at 58 minutes and 6 seconds: (58:06)

I: How about trips to Finland? Do you find that there's a strong interest from younger people such as this group here who are interested in pursuing their roots and looking into family history?

CP: I would say this is probably the youngest group I've had a chance to talk to that have any inclination or interest of what is Finn or immigrants and so forth. Again, I would say the exposure maybe in schools would be helpful. But I can tell you girls this, that if you have the chance to visit Finland and if there are indeed some relatives over there, you'll be grabbed. They won't let you go home. They're proud of us here who are Finns and with our roots in Finland. No matter if it be Sweden, the whole western side of Finland, from Oh (??) down, it's a mixture of Swede-Finn or the Finn-Swede. It’s… I can’t… I can't explain what a tremendous feeling that is when they raise the Finnish flag in your honor. Wow.

Transcript at 59 minutes and 38 seconds: (59:38)

I: You have met the president of Finland?

CP: The former president.

I: Former president.

CP: He was here in 1976. His name was Urho Kekkonen, and when I discovered he was gonna visit this area in Hancock, I was hosting the Finnish program at the time. Well, let me back up a little bit. I had--in 1967, I had corresponded with the president's office in Finland and asked for an audio message to our viewers, and [snaps fingers] it came, an audio tape with his picture that I used on the air. Wow, that's pretty nice. And that was also the 50th year of their independence, so there was a tie. So, [19]72, I was on my way to Finland, and I had written and asked if I could come over and do an interview there. And the response came that, oh, we'll try to set it up, but please call the office when you get in to Finland. So, I'm with my friend, the accordionist Veikko Ahvenainen, and I said, “Veikko, would you call?” And he was rebuffed. So, we called again. And again, he was rebuffed. He said, “Oh, these Finns. You call and speak English.” Boom, right through. The president had been called out of the country, so that interview was shot down. So, now he's coming to Hancock. So, I got hold of the embassy in Washington and met this guy up in Hancock who was sort of a lean (??) man. He said you have to write down your question two weeks in advance of the president before he'll acknowledge that you'll have that opportunity. Well, I had been in the news for a long time. I mean, we Americans don't--hey, that's pretty formal, write down a question two weeks before. You've just one. So, what would you ask the president? One question, one. So, I worked on that for a while. Finally, this guy helped. And sure as heck, the TV cameras were with me. And Semmel [phonetic spelling] lived in some area where he had just had lunch. And he did acknowledge Hyvää päivää to me, which is good day. And in my halting Finn, I read the question to him. And I'm thinking, “What response would he have knowing that there are so many Finnish-Americans residing in this area that he's visiting? What does he… What kind of remarks would he have to that?” I mean, he answered [makes droning noise]. That was it. I had to get out of there. And that's the year that a gentleman by the name of Lasse Viren, who was running a--I think the 10,000-meter race in the Olympic Games, and he stumbled and fell, picked himself up, and won the race. I couldn't--this guy, this president was an athlete himself. I desperately wanted to say, “What did you think of your countryman falling, picking himself up, and running and winning the race and everything?” I couldn't go back. I couldn't ask him. I shoved (??) him out of there.

Transcript at 1 hour, 3 minutes, and 30 seconds: (1:03:30)

I: When you first found out that Finn Fest was coming to Marquette, did you ever anticipate that it would be so successful?

CP: No. We knew that because we had three-and-a-half years of planning. We had some awesome people who were dedicated to putting their best efforts into the fest itself. From, as you said, Dr. Jon Saari in charge of all the lectures, and this person, and so forth. We knew… We knew it was gonna be [inaudible word]. We had the financial support of a number of sponsors in the area, so we had the money to [inaudible word] it. That was helpful. How successful, I guess, we really didn't know. As I said on [inaudible word], that was gratifying (??).

Transcript at 1 hour, 4 minutes, and 31 seconds: (1:04:31)

I: What has Northern [Michigan University] committed their funds to as far as Finnish studies since they were given a sponsor?

CP: Well, hopefully in the days to come, that they would bring in some individuals who could speak to specific issues, whether it be on history or immigration. Jon Saari, John Fulton, and… [pause]

I: Michael Loukinen.

CP: Michael Loukinen are in charge of that. It's an interesting point. When they retire, there's no one on that faculty that's a Finn.

I: Northern has had many Finnish professors over the years. That's interesting. What about Michael Loukinen? Is he pursuing anything now? And I know he has several successful documentaries on Finnish.

CP: He was working on the Hankala [phonetic spelling] homestead (??). That's the only one I know. That was part of a discussion we had last year. [unclear sentence] If anyone is interested--back to your question on Fulbright--is interested, I'll be happy to pursue that and get you answers.

I: Do they ever offer a summer program as a Fulbright scholar?

CP: That I don't know, but I'll check on that too.

Transcript at 1 hour, 6 minutes, and 20 seconds: (1:06:20)

I: Thinking back to when you were talking about your dad, when he came here, did he tell you of the conditions? And I know you alluded to it a little bit, but could you tell us a little more about what kind of conditions he left in Finland, what pushed him to leave?

CP: Well, I remember him saying poor times. Only a limited number of people owned enough land to farm. There was some logging. That's Finnish gold, but there was not enough in Finland for everybody, and the land across the sea was the place to go.

I: You said a relative wrote him a letter. Was that one of the major pulls to come here?

CP: Well, I don't think it was a relative. I think it was a friend. For instance, in Finland--let's say the city of Ishpeming. If you're born and raised in the Ishpeming area, and all of a sudden you move to Savannah, Georgia, as an example, and all of a sudden you find someone there from Ishpeming. [whistles] There's a tie, isn't there? Hey, we're from the same city, so we get to be friends. That was a draw in Finland. When a friend from here sent a letter to a friend in Finland, they immediately book passages. A lot of them, they couldn’t afford it. They had already earned some money here, so they sent some money to help them come. A lot of men came first then sent for their wives and children later. And it was that time. Omar Baikinen [phonetic spelling] was the name. Omar Baikinen. Same town as mine.

Transcript at 1 hour, 8 minutes, and 20 seconds: (1:08:20)

I: Do you have any comments on the Karelia fever experience that so many Finns, even in this area, were a part of?

CP: The drought at that time, you mean?

I: In the [19]30s, especially.

CP: Well, that's just when I was growing up in the area, so I didn't know too much about it, but I have since interviewed several people who left and went into Russia, actually, and suffered great consequences. Ida Korpi [phonetic spelling] just died here not too long ago. She was 16 years old when she had to go. She came back at the age of 80. That story should have been really full of print, how they suffered. She lost her husband, her son, her father, and her husband. They were put to death. An interesting part of that is [Mikhail] Gorbachev, when he became... Actually, the individual before Gorbachev. He was the head of the KGB [taps table] the tall guy. He became acquainted with the Finns who were in the Karelia area and got to know what importance they had to that development in the Karelian area, and Gorbachev recognized that even more and that was a turning point in the dissolvement of the Iron Curtain. They called (??) the Finns in Karelia for that. Whether that's true, I don’t know. That's what I was told. Interestingly enough, there's been talk about Karelia going back to Finland, becoming part of Finland. Polls taken in Finland, the majority say keep the border as it is. We don't want it back. [pause]

Transcript at 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 32 seconds: (1:10:32)

I: Much of that Karelian experience was, you know, not talked about a lot. But can you shed any light for these gals on the Finn halls or some of that leftist movement that took place, and do you have any recollections of that?

CP: I was young.

I: You were probably too young then.

CP: I was too young, too young for that. There was a great deal of antagonism back then. My father would call the individual who was leaning toward that left side of the aisle of communism as a Bolshevik. A great deal of antagonism. I would assume there would have been—I would believe there would have been a lot of fights in some of those halls at times where one individual would proclaim, my way, no, my way is better. The Finns have to show how tough we are. But I never did have any direct contact.

I: Do you remember that Coming Nation Hall in Ishpeming? Do you remember the structure?

Recording note: [no answer. Maybe he nodded or shook his head?]

Transcript at 1 hour, 11 minutes, and 51 seconds: (1:11:51)

I: What kinds of things did your parents--as a child of memories--what do you remember about growing up as far as, you know, Finnish visitors in your home? You’ve I think alluded to the fact that Finns kind of stuck together. Do you remember having certain, you know, visiting patterns or people coming by?

CP: Yes. Winter and summer, there would be continual get-togethers. Friends would go to their friend's house, and then they subsequently would come. There was coffee a whole lot of the time and sauna on occasion. It was also customary when Finnish ski-jumpers came into the area when my dad put his sauna in the basement, the Finns were--they weren't just asked. They were told, “You better go in the sauna,” to revitalize themselves. And I remember the women getting together and making pasties as a group. Years ago at the Bethel church, my mother would be there early on Saturday mornings, and that's how they made the money to pay for the church. It was all Finns.

Transcript at 1 hour, 13 minutes, and 8 seconds: (1:13:08)

I: Did your mother make carpets on a carpet loom or Finnish cheese?

CP: Oh, yes. Not the cheese so much, but she made the oven cheese, which is the milk from a newly born calf from the cow. And it would be like a [pause]

I: Like a custard?

CP: Yes, like a custard. It was called Brun-uusto, oven cheese. It was in a big bowl, and it was just so light and tender and tasty. But not the Finn cheese or the squeaky cheese, she never did that. But breads, I remember one incident. I was about--how old were you?

I: Fourteen.

CP: I might have been a little bit younger than you, maybe twelve, and my mom and dad went to choir practice. My mom had baked that day. There were loaves of bread out in the kitchen. The kitchen wouldn't stoke. Well, I made the cupboard. Gee, there was nothing in it. It was just ashes. I didn't have to do that. I watched my dad and my mom. I got some kindling in there. I got the kerosene. Got some kerosene. Boom! [all laugh] The whole house was just covered--or the kitchen. Ruined the bread. Burned my eyebrows right off the top of my head. And... I ruined the whole house. It was stupid. Really stupid.

Transcript at 1 hour, 15 minutes, and 2 seconds: (1:15:02)

I: Did your parents correspond with people from Finland on a regular basis?

CP: Oh, yes. My dad with his mother and father, with his brother. And during the Finn-Russian War, they would send packages of coffee and other items that they could not obtain in Finland. And we'd read Finnish newspapers with the latest scoop on what was happening. He didn't like the Bolsheviks. Wow. They hurt him, and they had hurt his country.

I: So, there was a real division between those who had…

CP: Oh, yes.

I: …leftist sentiments and those who were more, you know, church-oriented. They speak in the research about a large segment. You've already mentioned that in Finland, there's a big part of the population that chose not to attend church.

CP: Yes.

I: And I think probably in this area as well. Many who came here never did have church affiliation, but weren't necessarily communists or socialists either.

CP: Right. But there is a new trend going on. It started in 1988. As far as religion in Finland, it's called the Thomas Mass. Are you familiar with the Doubting Thomas? Or with Doubting Thomas who didn't believe that Christ had risen? They're having this. It's successful, and it's in principally big cities, especially Helsinki. It's very, very successful. It's a new concept, a new religion, and young people are flocking to the churches. Thomas Messu.

Transcript at 1 hour, 17 minutes, and 7 seconds: (1:17:07)

CP: Did you ever hear the story of Karlo Tuomi? Back the Karelian? He went as a young boy to this area of Russia, and because his English was so good, he was recruited by the KGB to become a spy for them and return to this country. And when he returned to this country, he was apprehended by the FBI and became a counter-spy for the FBI against the KGB. He was right here from Negaunee, Michigan.

I: We just looked him up. We found out that he died in 1995.

CP: I interviewed him several times, and (??) so (??) it (??) is (??).

I: Where did he live in Negaunee? It's--one of the papers I was reading said he lived north of Negaunee. Was that on the north road out there?

CP: Yes. On the north road, right. I have video of him looking at his old house.

I: Do you have a photo of him that you might use?

CP: I have a book with a picture on the cover.

I: Yeah, that'd be great. I just gave out of the book The Best of Finnish Americana this article. The girls just read that. As a matter of fact, we discussed him yesterday and were really interested, of course, the fact that he was born in Negaunee. And looking at my mother, who came to Negaunee, and now he's another link, so that makes a little different twist. And of course, he is a very, very interesting story. What happened to his father, his stepfather, a Sastamoinen.

CP: Yeah.

I: Do you have any audio tape of him at all?

CP: No, but an audio could be done from the--but it's in only Finn.

I1: Oh, his is all in Finn. That's okay, if you could translate it.

I2: Yeah, that’s okay with us. Yeah.

I1: We can have captions underneath. Is it on video?

CP: Yes, it's on three-quarter-inch tape right now. We can work that out. I can't do it immediately, but I can get it done.

I: That'd be great.

CP: I have a little bit of video and audio with a woman who also just died. Kofi [phonetic spelling].

I: Oh, okay.

CP: Who was also--she had tremendous stories of how she lived in one cabin in Siberia. Each family had one cabin, one small area of living, and another family in this, and another family in that area. That woman had lots of life.

Transcript at 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 46 seconds: (1:19:46)

I: In 1987, we did a similar project, and we looked at the labor struggles in the Finns, and we also did some research on the leftist socialist movement. And we had an opportunity to interview two women from Negaunee who had gone over to Karelia with their folks, and they talked about their experiences. And one lady said that she was eight years old when they went. They returned when she was 11, and she didn't grow one bit in the three years she was gone as a child. And her comment, which we have on tape, is that even the animals in the United States ate better than they did while they were in Russia, and she said it was very, very hard. And the only reason they were able to come back to the United States was the fact that her father never renounced his United States citizenship. He was able to get back, and I think they came through Finland and back to the United States. But we did. And Mrs. [Bobbi] Amin, being our art portion of our project, devised a way in which they were photographed behind a screen. Their mother just was so worried that they would ever, you know, be identified or it would ever come to light that--you know, she was so ashamed. So it was… You know, it was a sad story.

CP: Oh.

I: But my father had remembered that family, and through some connections, I made a few phone calls and persuaded the oldest sister to tell her story. And she was really reluctant, but eventually she did, but…

Recording note: [inaudible comment from child]

I: Yeah, I would really be interested in this Karlo Tuomi, though, to have the opportunity because that piece that's in Finnish Americana is very well written. It's by him. It's a primary source, so it's something that you...

CP: I didn't take with me. I didn’t think I needed notes.

I: This is all that we have. Do you have anything else?

CP: Would you be interested in seeing the Thomas Mass? It's about 40 minutes. It's in English.

I: Mm-hm. Now, you also mentioned to me on the telephone that you have a tape of Finn Fest. Would we--

CP: Yes, no problem.

I: Okay, for us to take a look at that. I mean, some of our students had a chance to participate in some of the activities. For those who didn't, it might be nice to see the parade. There might still be a three-quarter inches of the data. No?

CP: No, it’s VHS.

I: I was thinking maybe the high school might have had might still have a three-quarter, but…

CP: No, that's not a problem to transfer it to three-quarter.

I: Okay. Okay.

CP: No problem.

I: Good, great. Anything else that you can think of?

Recording note: [tape cuts out]