Frank Valente Interview

Frank Valente Interview

Transcript at 0 seconds: (00:00)

RUSSELL MAGNAGHI (RM): Interview with Frank Valente, Ishpeming, Michigan, January 27th, 1983. Okay, Frank, could you tell us a little about what you were saying about your grandfather?

FRANK VALENTE (FV): Yes, as much as I can remember. He was telling me that when he come into the United States in 1885, his main concern was to find a job, make a few dollars and go back to Italy to buy a farm.

RM: Now, what was his name?

FV: Francis Valente. Yep--no, excuse me, Francis Nari [phonetic spelling]. And after he was here about, he said, two months, he lived with a friend of his. He didn't even charge him for the board and room. They lived in one-room apartment down in the basement someplace in Chicago, and he finally succeeded to get a job in the railroad. He was telling me that they go to work six o'clock in the morning, and they don't come back until eight o'clock in the night. So during this time, during his employment with the railroad, one day he saw a car coming, a railroad car, which--and that car was the paymaster. Them days, they used to pay by cash, silver dollars and paper dollars. He noticed that a suitcase flew out of the car. The car was open. It was a closed car. And he walked over there and found the suitcase full of money in which was contained around 25,000 dollars. And 25,000 dollars them days was a lot of money. So, he was real honest, and he went over and he give to his shift boss the money. Shift boss, he didn't even say thank you. But later on, this paymaster, he realized that he lost his suitcase, and he want to know how he lost it. So through his shift boss, he was told that Mr. Nari found the suitcase, and he said, “Very good man. As far as my concerns, you can have a job the rest of your life with the railroad.” Two years later, he had the opportunity to promote him to be a foreman, the crew. And he refused because he couldn't express himself in English to tell the people what to do, and he didn't want to assume any responsibility. So, he refused to be a boss. So after he worked in the United States for about five years, he thought he had enough money to go back to Italy and buy a farm, which he did. And he was telling me that he had about 3,000 liras.

FV: 3,000 liras, you know, them days was a lot of money. And he made down payments at this farm, and he worked there the rest of his life. What he was doing, raising potatoes, beans, wheat, corn, and that's the way he raised his family. And he died at the farm. He was a very devoted man and very honest man. I wish I could say the same thing about me [RM laughs] that I can say about him. Many times I asked him, I said, “Grandpa,” I said, “how come you didn't take the 25,000 dollars and put it in the hole and forget about it?” “Oh,” he said, “my conscience bothered me so much that I couldn't…I couldn’t keep the money that wasn't mine.”

RM: Yeah.

FV: That's the honesty of the old people. I wonder if any one of us are like that today.

RM: Yeah.

FV: I think it's hard to believe, hard to believe it, but it's what happened.

Transcript at 4 minutes and 18 seconds: (04:18)

RM: Now, then your--this would have been your mother's father?

FV: My mother's father, that's right.

RM: So then, your mother then grew up in Italy.

FV: My mother… My mother grew up… She… She married my father in 1913, and my father got recruited in the service in the First World War, and he got killed in the war on June 6, 1917, and I was born November 7, 1917. She never got remarried. She tried to do the best to raise my brother and I. And then when I was 18 years old, I had an uncle by the name of Jim Nari [phonetic spelling] over here, which he was more like a father to us. He sent us money every month. And my uncle applied to take me over here.

RM: Oh.

FV: See, in them days, as long as you were a war orphan, you had some kind of a privilege under the Italian government. And my uncle was well off, you know. So long as I didn't become a public charge, the United States government gave him the approval to take me. And I come in here in 1935. Unfortunately, my uncle passed away five years later. And I really miss him. He was a real gentleman.

Transcript at 6 minutes and 2 seconds: (06:02)

RM: Mm-hm. Now, how did you--when you came, you know, when you came here, how did you find…how did you find the United States?

FV: Well, it was very hard in the beginning. In the first six months, I really wanted to go back because I had a difficult problem to learn the English language. And then, I thought this way: well, other people that didn't go to school, they learn. Now, if I want to apply myself, too, I can learn too. So, I did study hard. Then shortly after that, I got married, and my wife is an American-born. And she helped me quite a bit with the English language. But my main concern was to go to school to get the basing of the ABC, you know, because I want to learn how to write and read. And due to my wife's help, I succeed to learn. Not a lot, but I can get by. And then as far as myself was, well, I--when I first got married, it was the Depression time, too. We had to struggle to work, to get a dollar. The family started coming on, and responsibility was there. And I don't care what kind of a job I was doing, said I'm gonna make a dollar to buy a loaf of bread for my children. And with God's help, I think I succeed. And I wasn't ashamed of any kind of work. I was trying to tackle everything I could, and I done it.

Transcript at 7 minutes and 52 seconds: (07:52)

RM: Well, what were some of the jobs that you did?

FV: The jobs, even clean sewers with my hands to make a buck, go out and shovels the driveway by hands, and doing masonry work, which I learned a little bit in Italy. To me, any kind of a job was a job. And if I didn't know the job, I was willing to learn it. And then later in the years, 1939--I had, prior to that, worked in WPA [Works Progress Administration] for 44 dollars a month. I had three kids to support on 44 dollars a month. But during the summertime, I plant a big garden, raising potatoes, cabbage, turnips, carrots, and so on, all the vegetables, which we didn't have to buy. And on 44 dollars a month, it was just enough to buy the necessary items to support your family.

RM: So, you grew enough in the garden...

FV: Yeah, to take care in the wintertime the needs, the needs of the family for the wintertime. And it was real hard. But, however, I think it was a beautiful experience to understand the value of a dollar. And another thing, I always felt that where there's a will, there's a way, and maybe we've got to help provide every day, you know, better and better and better. So, I really got to thank God for that. [laughs] I was one enough fortunate to... I never run out of work. I never was afraid to work.

Transcript at 9 minutes and 41 seconds: (09:41)

RM: Now, what did you do during... Then things improved when World War II started?

FV: Well--

RM: I mean, job-wise. I mean--

FV: When World War II started, I was working for the Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Company, and we had the opportunity to obtain a deferment not to go into the Army. So, we had to work in the mine, produce iron ore, because the government needs the iron ore. And we're making 62-and-a-half cents an hour in 1939, 1940, until 1946. In 1946, big strike. The whole U.S. Steel on strike, the mine industries on strike, and we stay out for about five months. So, I went out of town. I went in the Copper Country to get a job, laying bricks and blocks for a contractor that still exists, the [inaudible word]. And I was making 2 dollars an hour, but the job didn't last long, less than five months.

FV: When I got back here, was no work. And I had saved 1,500 dollars, and I felt that I should go perhaps in my own business. So, I started going into a grocery business specializing in Italian products. With God's help, I succeed. I was working 18, 16 hours a day too, by myself from morning till night, with a little help from my wife sometimes for to give me enough time to go to the bank or to go to other places. And in the grocery business, I was told that it was a better business to change to go to a restaurant business. So, I went over, and I had a friend of mine in Chicago. She was making pizzas, [inaudible word] and I wanted to learn how to make pizza. And I went to Chicago, worked with my friend for three weeks for nothing. I was happy to be there to learn the trade. I come back to Ishpeming, and I start a pizza shop.

Transcript at 11 minutes and 57 seconds: (11:57)

RM: What was the name of it?

FV: The Napoli Pizza Shop. At that time, I was the only one in the whole UP [Upper Peninsula] starting pizza. People weren't familiar with the pizzas, but it took me about a year and a half before the people get to learn to eat the pizza. And I had tremendous business. In fact, I had to have a doorman in my establishment to feed so many people in and so many people out.

RM: Oh, my goodness.

FV: Until my wife, she felt a little sick. And five years later, well, I decided to close the restaurant because it was too much work on my wife and myself, too, because it was too many hours involved. So from then on, I had a trade. I started doing a contract in business. I made good all the way through. So, here I am today, which is I'm not a millionaire, but I'm not a poor man either. So, with that, I thank God for what he give me. And today, so long that I'm feeling good, my wife feels good, I think I'm the happiest man in the United States. I raised a family of six, five girls and one boy. I gave them the best education they could possibly give them. The boy graduated from Northern Michigan University, and he got his master's degree. And right at the present time, he's working for the Michigan Highway Department. The daughters, they all want to go to the beauty academy, and I managed to send every one of them. The other one went for nursing. And thank God, they all do well now. And now, the beauty (??) part, I have 17 grandchildren, and that's my... It's real, that happiness in my heart. My grandchildren. I’m… I gotta say that I'm fortunate. I've been lucky, and I gotta thank God for what I have today. The main concern is to the health.

RM: Yeah.

FV: The rest is okay, and I thank God for this day.

Transcript at 14 minutes and 34 seconds: (14:34)

RM: Do you think you… Would have your life would have been much different had you stayed in the old country?

FV: Oh, no question about it, yeah. Of course, my--I can't say. See, my life... Well, I don’t know. I was too much of a young man to understand life when I left there. I was 17 years old. But I had the opportunity to go to college, become a doctor, lawyer, teacher, and free expense because my father got killed in the war and the government gave the poor orphan the opportunity to go to any school that they choose.

RM: Oh.

FV: Choice to go to any school, free of charge. And when my uncle come here in 1934, he assured (??) me to come to the United States. I was going to enroll in college in Naples University, but he convinced me that the poorest man in America is just as better off as the richest man in Italy.

RM: Oh.

FV: So, I decided to come over here. But who knows. I can't tell you whether... I might have been better profession, better educated, but I don't know about financially. I can't tell you that because--

RM: Or, you might… You’re probably might be happier now than--

FV: That's right. Oh, I'm happy now because... Yeah, I... Well, I had a hard time and good time. But when you consider the good time and you level up with the hard time, I think we had a better time than the hard time, anyone that lives in the United States. Even though we have Depression, we have beautiful country. That's freedom of speech. The opportunity is there. The only thing, you have to go and get it. Nobody give it to you. You got to go and get it. And I always said to my kids that if you want to be, you’re gonna be. There's no such thing as no. It's everything yes. And that's beautiful in return (??) to the United States. Regardless if you have a dollar or not, if you want to get it, you get it. That's much better than a foreign country.

Transcript at 16 minutes and 51 seconds: (16:51)

RM: Now, you got involved in politics.

FV: Oh, yes.

RM: How did--could you give us some background on that, how you got interested?

FV: Well, yes, I can tell you. See, when I was in the restaurant business, I had an uncle that he was a politician.

RM: Now, what was his name?

FV: Jim Nardi. James Nardi. And one day, him and the chairman of the Democratic Party come over to see me to see if I'm interested to run for office. I said no. I wasn't interested. And the chairman of the Democratic Party, by the name of Peg (??) McNamara, he said, “Frank, we'd like you to be involved in politics, to be involved in politics because we have a man that we want to get the nomination.” That time, it was three candidates, and it happened to be the three of them, they were Italians. Said, “We see that you know a lot of people in Marquette. We want you to run for this position so you draw so many people away from the guy in Marquette, and then we give the opportunity to this local guy, Mr. [Dominic] Jacobetti, better chance.” He said, “Well,” he said, “it doesn't cost you anything. We’d pay. I'll advertise. We do everything for you.” So, I look at my uncle. My uncle was supposed to be a Republican, and--but I don't know how he got involved. He was close friends with Mr. McNamara. And I said, okay. Well, you do everything. The first thing you know, I have a petition there with a lot of names, send them in to the county clerk. And I wasn't picked (??) for state representative. And when the results come out, I lost by 88 votes, and I didn't do no campaigning at all. [RM laughs] You know, if I were to campaign a little harder and say--well, I even myself voted for Mr. Jacobetti, and the rest of my family.

FV: See, I was green in politics. I didn't know what to expect. So, Mr. Jacobetti got elected. He won the nomination. And then he beat the Republican opponent, a man by the name of Richard from Marquette. I guess Mr. Richard been in there for so many years. He never done nothing for the county. You know, in them days, we used to have a county representative. County, state, state level. And Mr. Jacobetti been there ever since. And then in April month in 1952, was an opening here in the city council. And a friend of mine said, “Frank, why don't you run for city council?” I said, “I don't know.” Now, they encouraged me to run for council. I never done no campaigning, so I lost the election, 1952. But, I lost by 77 votes. So the following year, there's another vacancy in the council because the city council has election every year. They said, “Frank, run again.” Well, I, I did run again, and I won the election by 77 votes.

RM: Oh. [laughs]

FV: I beat the outgoing mayor, Mr. Heckler (??). So, I've been there ever since, been involved, tried to do the best with my knowledge of the community.

Transcript at 20 minutes and 55 seconds: (20:55)

RM: Mm-hm. Now, weren’t… Were you mayor at one time?

FV: Oh, yeah. Three times. I was mayor three times.

RM: What years?

FV: In the [19]60s, [19]70s, and [19]80s. See, the way the charter is over here, that you--after two consecutive terms, you have to stay out for one year and then you can go again. And the first year, you cannot run for mayor. But the second year, I was mayor pro tem about seven, eight times. And then, I was three--for three terms, I was mayor, and I served on the council for 28 years. And I had six years of experience on the County Board of Commissioners that in them days they used to call the County Board of Supervisors, which all the municipality official--the council act as a supervisor, too, until they change it. I was there for six years. Until 1982, I decided to run for County Commission, and I won. And I'm still holding that position as a County Commissioner right now. It's--politics is interesting, very interesting. Very, very educational too. I think I learned lots, what can you do for the people and what the people can do for you. And it's very, very interesting. But my main concern was all these years that I've been in politics to help people. And thank God, I think I have the record that I've never done anything for personal gain. I don't want to. If there was any time that I could help people, that was my hobby and still is. That's why maybe I…I…I think the people realize too. From the results of the last election, you know, I never expected that many votes.

Transcript at 23 minutes and 7 seconds: (23:07)

RM: What was the--

FV: Oh, I was the highest in the county.

RM: Now, this was for County Commission.

FV: County Commission. And, I…I…I don't know exactly what…what to say, but I feel that most of the people that I have contact, you know, had any business with me, they felt that, I don't know, felt I was qualified for the job. Felt that I'm a good guy or bad guy, I don't know, but the results turn out that I was the highest in the county, which I'm very proud of that. And I'm still content to do the best to my knowledge. And I, from day one, when I started in politics, I felt that if you don't ask any questions, you'll get no answers and you never learn. So, it's my philosophy, if I don't understand some problem will come out before the council or before the county board, I'll ask questions. And that's the only way to learn the function of the county. Because right now, it's a little different when I was there 25 years ago. Now, the operation today, it's different system, and the only way to learn is by asking questions. And I've been doing that. I'm never too old to ask questions because I don't know the answer to every question.

Transcript at 24 minutes and 34 seconds: (24:34)

RM: So, you enjoy politics?

FV: I really enjoy it. I really enjoy it. And I enjoy it more when I can help somebody. It's not for the revenues there, not for the money that is involved, because money isn't the main issue in my life. It's just prestige that I love it. And that's it.

RM: Now…now are you…are you friends with [Dominic] Jacobetti?

FV: Oh, very, very close friends. Jacobetti and I, we are very close friends. I can say I'm just as close to Jacobetti and Senator [Joe] Mack than with my brother.

RM: Now, was he the first… Was Jacobetti the first Italian from this area to serve as legislator?

FV: That's right. That’s right. Jacobetti is the first Italian. And I was the first--the second Italian to be the mayor of Ishpeming. Mr. [Leonard] Altobello was first. And I--and then after Mr. Altobello.

RM: Oh. Then, you were on the council, the city council together.

FV: Yes, yes. We were on the council together.

RM: Oh. Now, what year would he have served as mayor?

FV: I think Leonard served in 1959 and 1963 as mayor. At that time, I was on the council. I got to be mayor after that. See, we used to be nine of us in the council. First 21.

RM: Oh!

FV: We're 21. Each ward had two aldermen and the mayor. And then, they cut them down and they changed the form, and they cut them down to nine. And I was to the nine. Then, changed again to five, and I was to the five standing.

Transcript at 26 minutes and 26 seconds: (26:26)

RM: Now, did you belong to any of the Italian organizations here in Ishpeming?

FV: Oh, yeah. I joined the Saint Roc Society the first year I was over here. The second year they made me president of the lodge.

RM: Oh!

FV: That's them days. It was real tough. I can tell you the story that perhaps create a lot of hard feelings on enemies among our people. But when I was selected to be president of the organization, we have bylaws. Number one bylaws mostly referred to Roberts Rules of Order, you see, and the Italian people, they have happened to talk all the same time. They never show any respect for the chair, for the president, or any others. So when a friend of mine nominated me to be president of the lodge, I accepted with one stipulation. Said I'm gonna follow the book. Oh, and everybody clapped. So it happened that the first meeting that I had, my own uncle—see, the book says you want to get up to address, address the chair first. Request permission from the chair before you're allowed to speak, and then the chair give you permission. So, my uncle get up to talk without permission of the chair, and I was the chair, and I fined my uncle five dollars. Well, that's what the book said.

FV: But, he wanted to get up to talk without permission of the chair. At some point, minimum penalty five dollars. The second time if he don't want to listen to the chair, instruction the second time is ten dollars. The third--third time, if you continue, you can kick them out, and it was time that I had to do that. Not with my uncle, but when I told my uncle, said, “Mr. Nardi, you're out of order.” And he said, “Why?” “Because you didn't ask me permission. So, I'll fine you five dollars.” He went over and paid the five dollars. In the meantime, was another good guy, he could have done the same thing. And I said, “Five dollars, Mr. Nardi. You got to learn how to address the chair first.” Boy, he insisted that you're not going to pay the five dollars. After ten minutes’ argument, I'll fine him ten dollars. He said, “You don't pay the ten dollars within another twenty minutes,” he said, “I'm going to dismiss you.” So, he…he knew that I'm in business. So, he went over and paid the ten dollars, but he was my enemy for about a year. [RM laughs] And I created a lot of enemies, but I was trying to do my job.

Transcript at 29 minutes and 15 seconds: (29:15)

RM: Did things improve then?

FV: Oh, yes. It improved after…after 5, 6 months. Nobody said nothing. You're up, Mr. President. Yes, Mr. Nardi. Talk. And nobody prefer (??) when you talk until you talk. And then if I get somebody else, I'll give them the chance. Everybody can talk. I never denied anyone. I was given permission to talk, but at the right time, not all at the same time. And I think in the end, they…they realize and they show me respect.

RM: Now, was that a common problem with these with the Italian clubs, a lot of them?

FV: Most of that was a common problem because they didn't know how to conduct them. They were too ease-going, let's put it that way. Not they didn't know how to conduct them, but they were easygoing. In the meantime, they had a book of rules and regulations, but nobody followed. Many times they used to have a fight, fist fight, among themselves. Now, I'll give you an example. Mr. Valela [phonetic spelling] over here is one of the oldest members in there now. He was president at the time, and he had to dismiss his best friend after he learned that--which was Dr. Bertucci’s [phonetic spelling] father. He said, “Mr. Bertucci, I’ll give you a five dollars’ fine, but I'm asking permission.” He insist he want to talk. Ten minutes later, “Mr. Bertucci, ten dollars’ fine.” Mr. Bertucci’s little head still want to talk. Ten minutes later, he said, “Mr. Bertucci, you’re expelled from the lodge,” and he stuck his gun, expelled him from the lodge. Mr. Bertucci went to a lawyer, and the lawyer didn't have no…no way he could fight the rules and regulations, so Mr. Bertucci was kicked out of the lodge. And Mr. Valela was president at the time, and he was very close friends and closer to the doctor. [cut in tape] Operate the lodge on friendship. You got to be all equal all the same, and he kicked him out. Never come back.

RM: Oh.

FV: Never come back.

RM: I mean, this was permanent. This was--

FV: It was permanent, yeah. The third time that you abused to talk to insult the chair, and the book says--

RM: Oh, I see. This wasn't just a temporary thing for that meeting, that he was dismissed for that meeting.

FV: No, no. This was dismissal for good. He was dismissed for good. Mr. Bertucci was dismissed for good. He never entered the lodge again.

RM: Oh.

FV: That's bad because he belonged to the lodge for 40, 50 years. I know everybody felt bad. I felt bad myself, but you have the rules and regulations. You have to obey it, and he didn't. He got expelled from the lodge, which I think at that time a lot of people respected Mr. Valela for sticking to his guns and say, “Well, I do what the book said.”

Transcript at 32 minutes and 28 seconds: (32:28)

RM: Now, do you remember the picnics they used to have?

FV: Oh, yes. It was a… We used to have a great picnic special. One of it, I'll never forget it. It was in 1939. Jimmy Rohde [phonetic spelling] was in charge of the celebration, and we spent in them days 1,000 dollars in fireworks, and it was the best fireworks that I've ever seen in my life. It was beautiful. We used to get--we got to celebrate Saint Roc’s Day with fireworks, with soft drinks, with the band. We had real good time. In the meantime, we made money for the lodge, too. We used to give up anywhere from 1,000 to 1,500 dollars a year, and we spent a lot of money. I think the public missed that now.

RM: When did they stop doing that?

FV: Well, they stopped doing that about 10 years ago. You see, the reason why they stopped doing, the old people, they were devoted to the lodge, and they didn't mind how many hours they were working. After the old people died out, well, the young people, they were not interested to work as much as the older people, and the same people do the work. So, we come to a point where we dissolve the…the celebration.

Transcript at 33 minutes and 58 seconds: (33:58)

RM: Now, how did--you remember these different religious celebrations in the old country. How similar was what they did here to what they might do in the old country?

FV: It's very near the same thing, same identical thing. In the old country when we celebrate Saint Roc's, the fireworks are number one. Parade with the statue, it's number two. You know, it's exactly the same thing that we used to celebrate in Italy. And in fact, about 10 years ago I was in Italy, and I was there Saint Roc's Day and…and really celebrate the same way they did celebrate 50 years ago and today. I really enjoyed it.

Transcript at 34 minutes and 45 seconds: (34:45)

RM: Do you think they'll ever get back to having a big celebration again?

FV: No. No, because see, the young people today, they don't have no time. See, when you want to do a job like this, you have time is not counted, and you got to have a lot of time and you got to like it. Today, the young people, they don't devote that kind of time like the old people. Like Mr. Valela over here for example, if you mentioned Saint Roc's Day, he'd be able to work a month, day and night sturdy (??) and no pay. That's what you call devoted people. The young people never follow his footsteps, never, including he's got a couple sons there, Joe and Bruno. Hard-working, they. I think Saint Roc is one of the major patrons of their [inaudible word] in the Catholic Church and willing to do that. They work hard, but that's the only family. The rest of the family, they separate. So, their people, they cannot do everything by themselves. That's why that this kind of a function is go backwards, and that's too bad.

RM: Yeah.

FV: I'd like to see it back. The young kids take over where the old people left off. That's the only way you can continue, you know, by having the young generation take over, but no interest. No, never show no interest. The young people can follow the old people, you know. Today, you'll never do it. See, the world change, maybe change for many reasons. Them days, we didn't have no television. [laughs] We didn't have no cars. It was nothing better than Sunday in them days when you have a day off to go visit your relatives. Not today. You can't do that because most of the people that got cars, they like to go to the lake. They like to go to the outside and so on, but they haven’t got no time.

Transcript at 37 minutes and 0 seconds: (37:00)

RM: So, the celebration was kind of a big activity in the summertime?

FV: Oh, yes. Yes, the celebration was, and it was and still is because we have some just the lodge get together. And from that, you could see that the people enjoyed themselves, but not like what we used to have years ago.

RM: Yeah.

FV: Never. Used to have the best band march with us in downtown. We’d have a band all day long playing at the picnic ground, played bingo, have the greased pole pigs, you know, the greased pigs, and we had politicians come to town. I can remember when Congressman [John] Bennett, he couldn't wait to come to Ishpeming for Saint Roc’s Day. He enjoyed it, and I…I was telling you about the fireworks. 1939, the first thing it showed a display in the fireworks, the American flag. The next, the next one was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, this Congressman. And you think you were looking at the picture, but it’s sky. You don't see that anymore. It was very, very different type of firework. Now, we got a bunch of smoke...

RM: Yeah.

FV: …and the big blast, and the thing is fireworks. But them days, the fireworks--even Saint Rocco’s right there.

RM: Oh.

FV: You could see it right there in the sky, last for 10, 15 minutes. You don’t see that anymore.

Transcript at 38 minutes and 44 seconds: (38:44)

RM: Yeah. Yeah. Now, did they have fireworks every year?

FV: No, no, no. They didn't do the fireworks. I think that was the last one we had.

RM: Oh.

FV: 1939, the best one.

RM: Yeah.

FV: Yeah, that's it. But, I don't know. I hope that, but how can you--you see, the reason why I don't think the young people, they found (??) the old people. Well, there's a reason. Now for an example, I’ve got a son. If he was here, perhaps he would. Now, there's no jobs for him over here. He lives in Lansing, and many of the other people went the same the same way. They're away from here, so.

RM: Yeah. So, you don't have that continuity of interest.

FV: No, that's right. You see, I know my son belonged to the Lodge. He joined the Lodge when he was 18. I've been his dues every year, [laughs] but still he's a member of the Lodge, but inactive member.

RM: Mm-hm.

FV: He's…he's in Lansing. That's the reason why, I think. The old people died out, and the young people, the ones that are here don't have an interest, and the ones perhaps they would have an interest, they would (??).

RM: Yeah.

FV: So, it's finally (??) dying out.

Transcript at 40 minutes and 11 seconds: (40:11)

RM: Mm-hm.

FV: Well, you know.

RM: Well, I don't know. Maybe at some point, you know, there'll be a renewed interest. You know, sometimes if you can keep those things going, then at some point it catches again on the people, you know, the clubs there.

FV: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

RM: The young people come back and say, “Hey, this is something, you know, some tradition I want to maintain.”

FV: Yeah, but today, from what I can study, the young people--you know, it's different feelings from what we used to have.

RM: Mm-hm.

FV: In same much ways, different feel. It’s all human. Yeah, that's true, but like I said before, see, the president of the Lodge called me and said, “Frank, we're gonna set up the poles tonight.” If I had time, I'd never say no. We'd go. We’d get 10, 15 people in one night set up the poles for the lights. So the next day, we'll go and put up the stands. We didn't look for pay. If we…we feel that Saint Roc was a patron saint of ours, we’re gonna do that for Saint Roc’s because we thought we'd copy (??) something. We…we'd dance. Now, if a young man goes in there for two hours and you see another brother say, “Hey, where the hell you been? Where you been? Why come you not here?” They're fighting among themselves, but nobody is devoted. The young generation is not devoted like the old generation. That's… I…I can't see any change there and never gonna be any change. It's gonna be more or worse.

RM: Yeah.

FV: In the time to come, they're separating themselves. Regardless—now, if you had work to do and you were a member of the lodge, maybe the president call, you say, “Can you come over?” Say, “No.” I said, “I gotta work.” “Okay.” I said, “I'll get somebody else.” He always got somebody, but the job was done…

RM: Yeah.

FV: …regardless of whether you were there or not, you see. But today, you can’t…you can’t depend on that.

RM: Yeah.

FV: You got certain few, you know, but not much.

RM: Yeah, not enough to…

FV: Not enough.

RM: Yeah.

FV: Yeah.

Transcript at 42 minutes and 25 seconds: (42:25)

RM: Now, does… You know, when you were living here—well, you’ve been here a long time--but when did you sort of notice say a change from…you know, like Italian stores and sort of…you know, a lot of Italian stores—initially, at one time, there were a lot of them, …

FV: Yes.

RM: …grocery stores and so on. When did that start ending? When did you start noticing, you know, fewer and fewer and…?

FV: Well, when that started to end was when the big supermarket started having all the Italian products.

RM: Oh.

FV: That kind of killed the Italian products. Because see, if I was selling let's say for 65 cents, cost me maybe 60 cents. And I was if I was making 20 percent, I was happy. At the end of the year, if I averaged 5 percent, I was happy. But then the supermarkets came in, and they had buying power. If I would buy, say, 50 pounds of pepperoni salad from Smith, well, the big supermarket, they buy maybe 1,000 pounds, 2,000 and distribute it. Naturally, they could… They got number one. They got better buying power. Number two, they have more people, and that's the time that the business started, the Italian products started going down and down and down. We are fortunate to have Hendrick’s [phonetic spelling] over here. That…that's a family store. They got overhead, you know, and they got their own building and the family and succeed to keep it up.

RM: Mm-hm.

FV: But if Hendrick’s had to pay hell to pay employees (??) a dollar an hour, it will never, never exist…

RM: Yeah.

FV: …because the profit was so big in them days. And then, the super--when the supermarket like the National Food Store and the A&P and come in, they compete one against the other. They were big. And actually, the…the young, the private store didn't have a chance because the people would say, “See, I can buy a pound of grapes, a pound of cheese over at the A&P the same thing for 79 cents.” Which we did 89 cents, and that's what destroyed small business.

Transcript at 44 minutes and 49 seconds: (44:49)

RM: Now, when you had your store, what--did you have things like polenta and…and Italian pasta and all of that?

FV: Oh, yes. We had every, every, all Italian products, and then I had to go to the American products, too, because people come over and say, “Well, I can't come in for just salami and pepperoni and capicola. I gotta have flour. I gotta have coffee.” And then, I started going into that too, see.

RM: Now, do you think what--you know, the…the larger stores started carrying Italian products.

FV: Yes.

RM: But don't you think then in the process, the quality was lost? Because like things you would carry, like, probably you had like baccala, cod, dried cod fish, …

FV: Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

RM: …things like that they don't carry, but you probably did.

FV: Yeah.

RM: The smaller stores did.

FV: Yeah, that’s right. The smaller stores did, yes. But it wasn't enough products that could keep you going. You see, for that odd products that the big store…the big store didn't handle, …

RM: I see.

FV: …but the major items, say, that—say, like pasta now. They started handling pasta, too. When we were getting 15 cents a pound, and they were selling for 10, and Mr. Valela, Mr. Tassin [phonetic spelling], they'd come over and say, “Hey, how about a pound of spaghetti over at the A&P for 10 cents? How can it be, 15 cents?” Maybe the quality isn't there, but the product is there.

RM: Yeah.

FV: See, them days, we used to have two spaghetti company in the coun—in—well, from Chicago this way, there was a Milwaukee macaroni company. It was a manufacturer of spaghetti, macaroni, and so on. They had the Cerillo brand Chicago macaroni company, that's the only thing. And then, Russo started. Then, Pagliacci started, all that. They started competing among themselves. And of course, competition reduced the price. I thought--and I noticed that many times--when the salesmen come and say, “Frank, if you take a thousand pounds, I'll give you this price.” No, I gotta get that price. I couldn't afford to get that much money.

RM: Yeah.

FV: See, and I have to pay a higher price, so I couldn't sell at a lower price. So when the big stores come in, they could afford to spend maybe two, three thousand dollars on one item, and actually they could sell it for what I paid for it, …

RM: Yeah.

FV: …and that's what destroyed the small stores.

Transcript at 47 minutes and 14 seconds: (47:14)

RM: Yeah. What would some of the…some of the stores. Could you go through a list of the stores that are in Ishpeming today, the Italian stores?

FV: The Italian stores? You only got—

RM: Also restaurants and bars that are, say, operated by Italians.

FV: Well, the bars, I say 75 percent, they operate by the Italians. Stores--

RM: What would some of the some of the bars be, the names of them?

FV: Well, for example, it's--the Royal is Italian. The Roosevelt is Italian. The Paradise is Italian. The Congress is Italian. But it was one time that it was pretty 99 percent operated by Italians. In my days, it was all Italians in the bar business except one. They had one in Ishpeming where Bee (??) is now, the only one. The rest, they were all Italian. It was 99 percent on the bars, and there was kind of a quote in them days. They say, well, the Jewish, they own it. The Italians, they operate it. And the Finnlanders, they have a hell of a time. [both laugh] Yeah, that’s right. Well, it was true you know.

RM: Yeah.

FV: Everybody was beholden to the bank, and the bank was operated by Sam Cohodas.

RM: Yeah. Mm.

FV: Yeah, that's…that's cute saying.

Transcript at 48 minutes and 43 seconds: (48:43)

RM: Yeah. And then how about the… Were there… Were there Italian restaurants?

FV: Italian restaurants, I was--I think I was the first one in Ishpeming.

RM: Now, Italians didn't really--in the old days--didn't have restaurants really, you know.

FV: No, not too much restaurants because, see, especially over here in this area in Ishpeming, everybody go to work, take the dinner pail, and they couldn't afford to go to a restaurant. There wasn't--the restaurant wasn't so commercialized like it is today. Today, it’s you and your wife, you don't want to cook tonight. Say, well, let's just cheat to go out and eat, and they get used to go out more. But them days, wasn't no such thing as go out for supper or go out for lunch, go out, you know. And especially in Ishpeming because it was mine can work. Majority of the people were working. Wasn't enough office work so that people go for like lunch, you know. There was very little, and I think there was only one restaurant that used to call the Annex Café [phonetic spelling], which that's the one I bought long-term.

RM: Oh.

FV: It was the only one, and mostly they were served coffee and donuts and small items. There was no big dinners or anything like that. And of course, the Mather Inn. The Mather Inn started, but the Mather Inn was appointed (??) for higher-class people. And when the Cleveland-Cliffs [Iron Company] discontinued, you know, well, the Mather Inn went down, see.

Transcript at 50 minutes and 22 seconds: (50:22)

RM: The Mather Inn was kind of a hotel for Cleveland-Cliffs officials.

FV: A hotel. It was headquartered (??) by the Cleveland-Cliffs. They went up at the end of the year, pay (??) ten thousand dollars to Cleveland-Cliffs, paid it off, but there was more or less earmarked to hunt and fish and educated people. Now, the poor people remember that. They did not patronize the Mather Inn. [inaudible crosstalk]

RM: Oh, yeah. Sure. That's why it's just never been successful?

FV: No, no. That's right. Once the Cleveland-Cliffs divorced themselves, the Mather Inn dissolved, went to stockholders, and that's it. The business went down as the poor people felt--the working people felt that, “Well, some time ago, I had to have a necktie to come in to the establishment. You didn't accept me because I didn't have a necktie. Now, you want me, I won’t come.” And that's… The people still remember that. I know I do. I do, and…and that's why the Mather Inn isn't there now here. But the Mather Inn was one of the best in Ishpeming. Oh, yes. It was high class. We had all politician come and stay at the Mather Inn. We had the President of the United States stay at the Mather Inn. Richard Nixon stayed at the Mather Inn. At that time, the Mather Inn was class. No longer today.

RM: Yeah.

FV: Now, it's a dump, you know, compared to…

RM: Yeah.

FV: …some other motels and hotels. And then, you got on about grocery stores. At one time, we count over 41 grocery stores in the city of Ishpeming—41--and everybody was making a living.

RM: Now, these were mostly Italian, or…?

FV: No. No, mixed.

RM: Mixed.

FV: The Italian was Anne Wright [phonetic spelling] and Tassin [phonetic spelling]. It's the only store in them days, a true Italian store. And then--until I started one. And then now, it's Ralph and delicatessen (??) and Anne Wright, but Joe’s Supermarket handles everything there.

RM: Oh, I see. Yeah.

FV: See, you go down beyond to Russo, buy--to go to the IGA, you buy the same thing. They handle all Italian products.

RM: That's interesting that in the old days there were only two, and today, there's still two.

FV: Yeah, that's right. It’s just as far as specialized Italian products--

RM: Yeah.

FV: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

RM: So, it’s maintained itself over the years.

FV: [inaudible crosstalk] Italian. Yeah, I don't know anybody else got a store. Of course, my brother Tudi [phonetic spelling] may. He's Italian, but he got a store in Bergany [phonetic spelling] that's pick-up, …

RM: Yeah.

FV: …pick-up store.

Transcript at 53 minutes and 11 seconds: (53:11)

RM: Now, do you remember--you know, when you were here in the early days--did you ever run across any prejudice, or was there much prejudice against Italians by, you know, non-Italians, sort of the English or American?

FV: Yeah. There was some kind of an implied—see, them days, if you at an Italian store bought, the business have to contact the Italian people because the other people patronize you, but just in case, emergency. They couldn't find or the other store was closed, but for sturdy trade, daily trade, they were going to their own kind. If you were Finnish, you go to the Finnish store, see. That's the--if you were English, they were going to the English store, but you could survive if you had to depend on the other nationality. But today, it's a little different. Today, the people go [laughs] wherever the price is cheap because mostly 95 percent of the business is done by cash. Them days, it was credit. Naturally, I couldn’t expect a Finnish family to come and charge to me, but I had some but not to amount to anything. But the bulk of the business was about the local store to the local store. Like the Finnish people had the co-op that was 100 percent, and the English people had Cox, they had Myers, and they had Lippert, and they had Gustafson [all phonetic spellings]—well, the Swedish people.

RM: Each one.

FV: Each nationality, they had two or three stores. See, Rosberg [phonetic spelling] was one of the big stores in the area, and he had pretty near, say, 80 percent of the Finnish people all charged. And then on payday, they go and pay the bills. Today, it's a…it’s different type of operation. Today, whatever is the most economical, they go. Sometimes, you go to Marquette. The reason why you go to Marquette--when I go to Marquette and I stop over at Edgy’s [phonetic spelling], I like his bread. I stop to pick up a loaf of bread. I see maybe 30, 40 people from Ishpeming shopping there. And then, I go across to the Red Owl because they got to buy coffee or sugar, and then you see another 10, 15 people from Ishpeming. See, the people traveling today.

RM: Yeah.

FV: Now, they got when they’re [inaudible word] near, they give you the [inaudible word] to travel. They got cars. Every family got a car, let’s face it, whether you’re rich or poor. Maybe you got a better car, but they got transportation, and the people like to travel.

RM: Yeah.

FV: And they see in the newspaper that coffee is 50 cents cheaper, that’s where they’re going. The whole, the whole thing changed. But years ago, they didn’t have no cars. You couldn’t go to Marquette and shop. They had clothing stores over here. They had shoe stores. Now, you only got two shoe stores, you know, plus the penny store. Otherwise--but in them days, it was different, more…more of a business, more variety of business than you have today. Yeah, that’s… It’s a little, a lot of different, a lot of change. So fifty years ago--I can speak about 50 years to today--it’s a lot of difference.

Transcript at 56 minutes and 51 seconds: (56:51)

RM: Now, do you think the quality of life was better then or now?

FV: Yes. I’ll tell you why the quality of life was better, to my judgment. Now for an example, when I first start in life, I bought an old house, you know, and this house didn’t have no basement. And I had to have a home for my kids, and I decided to just dig a basement by shoveling. All of my friends, all the neighbors, relatives, they come to help me to shovel to dig my basement. We were helping one another with no pay. Today, who’s gonna help you unless you pay? That’s the difference. And then, we use our time. We have more of a variety to spend our time, night and day time. We go visiting, and then we sit. We had a dozen friends, and we’d go and visit. And on Sunday, they’d come over here. The time was going so (??) than it is today. Today is not…not the kind of relationship between one family and another because everything is money or nothing. That’s what I find that. Now, I’ll give you an example. In my days, we had a garden. [inaudible word] All Italian people had a garden because the Cleveland-Cliffs would give the land for nothing.

Transcript at 58 minutes and 32 seconds: (58:32)

RM: Oh, so they had gardens away from town. Yeah, it’s over here where we’ve got the water supply.

FV: There’s a lake there now. Say that it’s time for us to collect our potatoes. You have to go and dig potatoes by hand. Six of seven of us say, “Tonight, we’re gonna dig Frank’s potatoes.” We didn’t have machines, you know, to dig the potatoes. Put them in the bushel, put them in the car, take them over to my house. My potatoes were all collected. Tomorrow night, we’ll go to your house, and we would do the same thing. And then maybe the same night, my wife made a luncheon, drink wine or drink brandy, everybody happy. You don’t see that today. And I think them days, when I remember, it was better communication, close relationship, and so on.

FV: I think, as far as my concern, I consider them days was closer than we are today. Number one is the time. Number two is the--I don't know--the position that you have, you know, and so on. And number three, I don't think that nobody want to wait (??) for now. That's… I hope that… I wish that the system will still continue that way because we had--we were closer. Now, the only concern they have is to go out and make one dollar more good. The thing about the dollar, the dollar is the life of the people, and it's no good because when you die, you can't take it with you. [both laugh] No, I can't remember a hell of one of them days of my wife had a baby. The neighbors come in, take care of my wife, cook for my wife, take care of the baby. My wife was sick then. You…you didn't have to go to the hospital. They didn't. Today we got a cold, we call a doctor, go to the hospital. No help in the hand, et cetera. That's the difference.

Transcript at 1 hour, 1 minute, and 0 seconds: (1:01:00)

RM: Now, when you came over here and you settled in in Ishpeming, were you sort of surprised to find that the Italian community was almost like a village with everybody sort of knowing each other?

FV: Yes. Yes. I was surprised to see so many people from my hometown, and I was very surprised how they got along with one another. It was very encouraging. Then, it was a real surprise and appreciated. Today, they no longer exist.

RM: Yeah. Now, was it--like when you came here, was it as if they had--you know, when you saw this--was it as if they had taken the village from the old country--

FV: And brought it over here? Exactly. That's right. Exactly. Because, see, them days, you didn't have no TV, no radio. You had to go visit somebody. For an example, I used to know my wife's mother. I never had intention to go with her daughter, but I know her from Italy, and I used to go there. And then, somebody else come over there, you know, they come over there and invite me to go to their house and see different people, and we were acquainted with them, you know, and we talked about the old country. And it was more or less the same thing that you left over here. That's more than what I can say about today. Today is we hardly know each other.

RM: Yeah.

FV: We are relatives here. We got away from that kind of traditions that we had before.

Recording note: [tape ends]