Judge Garfield Hood Tribal Judicial System Interview

Judge Garfield W. Hood Interview Transcript

Transcript at 0 minutes, 0 seconds: (00:00)

Debra Williams [DW]: …13th, 1999, and the topic is the origins of the Keweenaw Bay tribal court system. Judge Hood, what is your birth date?

Garfield Hood [GH]: June 29, 1945. [says something inaudible]

DW: What was your relationship with the tribe?

GH: From January of 1972 for approximately 18 years, I served as the tribal attorney for the tribe. The first--I believe the first two-and-a-half years it was on a full-time basis. And after that, I opened a private practice, and they were one of my on-going clients.

DW: Yeah. I am curious to how the tribal court system was created.

GH: Okay. It’s twenty-five years ago there abouts now. Do you recall the date when the tribal code was enacted or when the tribal court first began operations? That would help me put things in a time frame.

DW: I don't have that.

GH: Alright. Then what I am going to be giving you are approximations.

DW: Yeah. And I can look that up.

GH: Alright. I originally was hired by the tribe with funds that were supplied by the Campaign for Human Development of the United States Catholic Conference. I moved up with my wife after I graduated from law school at Wayne State University to take that job. And essentially, at that point in time--again, around January of 1972--the Campaign for Human Development of the United States Catholic Conference was supplying funds to different segments of society in an effort to help those communities develop their governments and assist them in just general development. For example, they were providing grants to provide legal services for Hispanic migrants. And what they were looking for were innovative programs that would have a real impact on a community on a local basis. The tribe had applied for and received a grant, and they were looking for an attorney at that point in time, not just someone to act as an attorney for the tribe itself, but also--and perhaps even more importantly at that point in time--to assist the tribal government in developing itself as a government. At that point… At that point, the tribal government was extremely disorganized and virtually non-existent. Anybody who looked at the tribe today and the tribal government today and looked at what existed back at that point in time would be absolutely amazed. To say that there would be a night-and-day difference is certainly no exaggeration.

DW: And this was about the late [19]70s?

GH: No, this was the early [19]70s.

DW: Or early--early [19]70s.

GH: Yeah, around 1972.

DW: Okay. [inaudible crosstalk]

GH: For example, when I came up here, the tribal council ran their entire economic system out of a personal checkbook. I don't know--are you from the local tribe?

DW: I'm a member of the Keweenaw Bay.

Transcript at 3 minutes, 58 seconds: (3:58)

GH: Alright. I don't know if you know Helene Welsh?

DW: Yes, I do.

GH: Helene, a delightful lady, was the tribal treasurer for years, and she had a checkbook--just like a personal checkbook that you have from one of the local banks--and that was what they paid their expenses with. The tribal council got together once a month or once every couple of months, found it difficult to find a place to even meet, and there really was very little of in terms of organized governmental activities that existed at that point. You haven't asked me the question, but in terms of reasons for that, the Michigan tribes were really second-class citizens insofar as the Bureau of Indian Affairs was concerned. The area office of the Bureau was in Minneapolis, and consequently the Minneapolis tribes got much more in terms of economic support and governmental development assistance than the Michigan tribes. The Michigan tribes had an agency office over in the Soo [Sault Sainte Marie]--and I believe it still exists over in the Soo--but at that point of time, the Michigan agency office was essentially one person and a secretary that somehow got exiled to Michigan. You know, "If you misbehave, we are going to send you over to direct the Michigan agency office."

DW: Ok.

GH: The Michigan tribes, Keweenaw Bay included, simply got next to nothing in terms of legal support, economic support, or anything else. The Michigan tribes generally were different in some other respects from the Minnesota tribes and, to a degree, from the Wisconsin tribes. Although they were certainly federal Indian reservations, they were reservations much different than some of the Minnesota reservations, such as Red Lake, as an example, where Indian people really were all together in a sense. There wasn't a great deal of intermixture at Red Lake.

DW: Their land basis.

GH: Right.

DW: I mean, you can pretty much tell where the non-natives are.

GH: Exactly. And when I say Indian, I know that Native American is a phrase that is probably more acceptable today, but when I came up here, the people said. “We’re Indians.” And…and because that’s what they preferred to use, I guess I still hold over to that. So if it is offensive to someone, I don't mean it to be. That's what the people thought of themselves as, and that's how they described themselves.

DW: Ok.

GH: So because they were more tightly knit groups over there--as opposed to the Michigan tribes which generally had as many non-Indian people, sometimes more non-Indian people on the reservation or living within the boundaries of the reservation--there was more assimilation in Michigan among the various tribes than there were in Minneap—or the Minnesota tribes or even some of the western tribes. And because of that intermixture and assimilation, there was…I don't want to say less of an identity, but less of a cohesiveness that existed over here. And consequently, that's another reason why the Michigan tribes were sort of bastard step-children insofar as the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] and Minneapolis area office were concerned. In the early [19]70s--in the late [19]60s and the early [19]70s, there was a resurgence of a desire on the part of the people in many tribes--but particularly Keweenaw Bay, which at that time was without question leading the pack in terms of desire to reassert, you know, tribal rights, in terms of Michigan tribes--there was a desire to begin to assume responsibility for what the people of the tribe understood they had a right to assume responsibility and develop themselves.

Transcript at 8 minutes, 58 seconds: (8:58)

DW: Mm-hm.

GH: And so consequently, this comes back to my earlier comment that what my job really was more than being a lawyer and court for the tribe was to assist the tribal government in terms of organizing itself. The tribal government--I described the Council and the economic aspects of the tribe earlier. The tribe had been given the old orphanage at Assinins, and when I arrived, there were two people in the that tribal center building. One was Fred Dakota, who was tribal chairman, and the other was Georgeann Emery [phonetic spelling], who was his secretary. At a later time, not too many months after I arrived, there was another position that was somehow funded or staffed. But there we were, about four of us in that great big old building, listing to the wind blow and the floors creak.

GH: I viewed my job as one that I really should work myself out of. My responsibility, as I viewed it, was not to be there to run the government for the tribe but to rather assist the folks who were, you know, very capable, very intelligent people but simply had not had the opportunity to, you know, participate in a government before, to help those folks develop their talents and their abilities so that they could assume the responsibility to run their government and their reservation. So, I looked at it as something that I hoped I would work myself out of a job in a two to three year period. Now, I am not so sure what everybody else's perspective of my role was, but that’s the way I viewed it. It was very apparent from the outset that the things that I described about the Michigan tribes sorta being bastard stepchildren, it was very apparent that that was the case. And it was also very apparent that over the years, because of a lack of support from the BIA, a federal Indian reservation had in fact totally lost the powers that it was supposed to have and that traditionally it did have. For example, there was no concept on the part of county officials or state officials that the boundaries of the reservation meant something. There was no--

DW: Mm-hm. It’s still in dispute.

Transcript at 12 minutes, 3 seconds: (12:03)

GH: Yeah. There was no understanding that in fact the state could not exercise criminal jurisdiction over members of the tribe with respect to offenses that were committed on the reservation, and there were tribal members that were in prison. The local district court regularly--local prosecuting attorney regularly prosecuted tribal members for incidents that occurred on the reservation. They were, on a regular basis, processed through the district court and the circuit court. There was essentially no recognition of the unique attributes that flow from a federal Indian reservation. So, one of the first things that the Tribal Council wanted to do was to begin to re-establish that understanding. It took a lot of education on my part because I didn't, by a long shot, understand the nuances of a federal Indian reservation and what it meant, but it was important from the standpoint of the tribal government to begin to re-establish insofar as the non-Indian community, the non-Indian governments were concerned, that it in fact was a government that had powers that it could exercise. So on the one hand, we began to try to educate the non-Indian community as to those unique attributes. There were many areas of the country at that time where there was a very confrontive relationship between the emerging tribal governments and non-Indian people. There was a bit of that at Keweenaw Bay, but not a lot. It was more an education process. And whether that was a product of the way in which the people in the tribal council chose to proceed, whether it was attributable in part to my personality and the way that I thought was most effective to proceed, whether it was attributable to the fact that many tribal members were in fact married to non-Indian people, I don' t know. But it was a more educational process than a confrontive process.

GH: At the same time, it was recognized that "Hey, if we don't want state laws to be applied to tribal members on the reservation, then we have to have our own laws. If we don' t want the state court system to be prosecuting tribal members for events that took place on the reservation, then we have to have our own tribal code system. And if we don't want to have the state police or sheriff's department arresting our members for offenses committed on the reservation, then we have to have our own tribal police force.” It was a long and an intensive process to convince the BIA that they had some obligations to provide, you know, law enforcement, but over the course of time, we did. I think at first there was one officer assigned, and then ultimately I think a second officer was assigned. At the same time, Fred Dakota and Fred Gauthier [phonetic spelling]--of course, everybody in that area pronounced it as Fred Gokey [phonetic spelling]--and I went, took a tour of some reservations where they did have in place tribal codes, tribal court systems, tribal law enforcement systems. We went to Red Lake. And actually, the most productive stop of our journey--there were some other places as well--was the Turtle Mountain Chippewa Reservation in North Dakota because they had in place--they had gone through the process that Keweenaw Bay was about to go through, and they had in place a working law enforcement system.

Transcript at 16 minutes, 35 seconds: (16:35)

GH: So, I collected tribal codes from various reservations and ultimately ended up drafting the tribal code of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community--the first version, and then some time later, a couple of other versions--but what I tried to do was do something very basic, very, very clear. Now, we didn't need at that time, at that place, we didn't need a 28-book code of federal regulations. We needed something simple that was understandable and that dealt with the areas that were of most concern to the people of the tribe. Numerous meetings with committees of the tribal council, with the tribal council itself, taking Turtle Mountain's code, Red Lake's code, a number of other codes and blending them. We ultimately came up with a tribal code that was approved by the tribal council and ultimately by the feds. At about the same time--maybe later, maybe before, but about the same time--and this was in 1974, I should mention, around 19…in the period [19]73 to [19]74--we got a couple of tribal police officers that were funded by the BIA, and we also created the tribal judicial system and the judge was elected.

DW: That was?

GH: The first Tribal Judge was Ted Holappa. And Ted, I have to say, was the perfect person for that position at that time. Ted is very bright, but in addition to being bright and cosmopolitan in terms of the ways of the world, he also had a very strong bonding to the community and the people of the community and a very strong interest and belief that traditional Indian ways should be a part of any tribal court, code, police force, because if they weren't, there was no reason to not simply say, “Alright, we'll just enact the state laws as our laws, and we'll, you know, contract with the district court to handle our defendants.” Somehow, all of that came together. And at the same time, our educational process was going on so that one day, there wasn't just a tribal police car that was, you know, driving around the community. It took a great deal of effort locally and on the state basis, but ultimately it came to be recognized that, yes indeed, within the boundaries of the reservation, the tribal code applied to tribal members and the tribal police had jurisdiction over tribal members and the tribal police had jurisdiction. Now, that’s not to say that there weren't a whole lot of other things that came to be concerns, as you mentioned. Even today there are still disputes that exist with respect to the range of the tribal authority. But that was the single biggest victory because before that, there was nothing. After that, there was something. Certainly, it’s grown in sophistication. There are more laws. There are more police. There are more judges, more of everything. But that was the genesis of everything that has come since.

Transcript at 20 minutes, 46 seconds: (20:46)

DW: It’s incredible to see how it’s grown, you know, to hear the origins and to see how far they’ve come.

GH: Mm-hm. You know, now there have--while I was representing the tribe I think in the [19]80s, the latter part of mid-[19]80s, there was the federal litigation that ultimately established that the tribe had jurisdiction within the exterior boundaries. The state had said, you know, “Alright, you know, on the reservation, you have jurisdiction. We won't argue that anymore. However, this 40-acre parcel here is owned by a non-Indian, so you don't have jurisdiction there, even though you have jurisdiction next door on this 40-acre parcel that’s owned by, you know, tribal members. So where U.S. 41 runs over, you know, land that is owned by the tribe, for example, we won't bust your people for drunk driving, you know, you can do that. But once it passes off that 40-acre parcel, we’re going to, you know.” Well, that litigation finally resolved that issue, to the extent that there is not a checkerboard reservation for jurisdictional purposes. It’s within the exterior lines.

DW: Do you have a copy of that case?

GH: No. There were other things. Back in the [19]80s, the…a number of parcels of land were removed from the tax rolls as a result of the tax chart (??). Now, this is different than what’s going on now and what happened in the [19]90s. That’s an extension of what happened back in the [19]80s when we first were able to first convince taxing authorities that if you are a tribal member and you own a house that’s in Baraga, which is on the reservation, then you are not obligated to pay state tax. The [19]94 litigation and what’s happening now are an outgrowth of what happened back in the [19]80s. So, there are lots…there are lots of speed bumps and fine tuning that are…that have gone on since [19]74, [19]75. Things evolve, things change, but that’s where it began.

DW: Great. How was it funded? Was it funded through the Bureau?

GH: Yes. Initially, it was funded through the Bureau. I don't know how it’s all funded today. I know that the tribe has assumed a greater responsibility, but initially it was Bureau-funded.

Transcript at 23 minutes, 37 seconds: (23:37)

DW: Ok. So basically, before the tribe created their own court system, Michigan state took on policing the reservation and…?

GH: Yeah. There was--I mean, there was just never any issue. There was never any question. It's just the state always exercised jurisdiction.

DW: And there was never any dispute over that?

GH: No. Again, because you know the tribal government had—see, there will--there are elders who will disagree with me on this because when I say it, it offends them. But it is a fact, that even though, you know, the tribe for years was essentially sort of a club. You know?

DW: Yeah.

GH: Like the Masons or the Knights of Columbus.

DW: Or just…or just an organized business, their own little...

GH: You know, it was just… Any…any rights associated with being a tribal member on the reservation had long since been lost.

DW: Okay.

GH: And as I said at the beginning, they’d get together once every month or every three months and have a meeting and decide when the harvest feast was going to be, and that was the major decision for the month or for the quarter. So, there was just never any question. People might grumble about it, you know, “those state police shouldn't be picking up Johnny for, you know, breaking into the grocery store,” you know. But there wasn't anybody else to pick up Johnny who busted into the grocery store. You know what I mean? There wasn’t… There wasn't the slightest recognition on the part of state authorities and probably most tribal authorities, tribal people, but—well, maybe a slight recognition on the part of tribal people, something that they were told by their grandfather sort of thing.

DW: But they didn't know how to enforce it?

GH: Right, right. I mean, it was like it was no more…they were no more able to do that than they were to fly to the moon, it was so, so far out of reach. And in terms of state and county authorities, you could have asked a hundred people in Baraga or L'Anse if, you know, they recognized that the state police didn't have jurisdiction over tribal people on the reservation by law, and they would say, “Oh, it's not true.” There was no recognition, none.

Transcript at 26 minutes, 14 seconds: (26:14)

DW: So when it started, there were--I’m assuming there were a lot of challenges in court then over jurisdiction to begin with.

GH: More in the hunting and fishing area than in terms of--this is--I'm sorry. I should have asked. Does this bother you? [regarding Judge Hood smoking indoors]

DW: I'm ok. It's a nice big room.

GH: Okay. More…more in the hunting and fishing area than in the other area because, as I mentioned, we did not take a confrontment approach. You know, there were some parts of the country where--excuse me--you know, the cops and tribal people were out banging each other with billy clubs…

DW: Mm-hm.

GH: …and, you know, and, you know, fighting, and--I mean take-overs out west, people shooting at federal authorities. And that’s not the type of tribal council that we had, and that’s not the type--that’s not my style. So, it was much more of an educational process, you know. Interviews in the newspaper, you know. TV6 did a number of pieces on it, and it was more of a gradual convincing. So, there wasn't that much litigation that was involved because it was pretty much, “Look, this is the way it is. You know, here, here's the book. Here's the law. Here’s the…” “Oh, yeah? Well, we’re gonna contact the Attorney General.” And so, they contact the Attorney General, and somebody researches it and says, “Yeah, I guess they’re right,” and--

DW: So, it kind of… It didn't happen all at once. It was just over…

GH: It didn’t ex--it didn't explode, it grew.

DW: Grew. The tribe took the patience…

GH: Mm-hm.

DW: …with your guidance to…to do that in a peaceful fashion.

GH: Yeah, and I don't want to--you know, I don't want to sound as though I am taking credit for it, cause we had…

DW: No, I'm giving you credit for it. [laughs]

GH: We had some real good tribal council members.

DW: That could see.

GH: Good. Yeah, good people. And when half of them are married, you know, to non-Indians, or, you know, their kids are married to non-Indians, or they live next door and are best friends with a non-Indian, there’s much less impetus to be confrontational. You know, you are talking about neighbors. You're talking about family.

DW: Yes. Yes, right.

GH: There was a point--and this was before my time, so I would guess that it was in the summer of 1970 or [19]71--when a group came in from AIM [American Indian Movement] and there was some sort of a Fourth of July parade or Bishop Baraga Parade--

DW: It was a pageant.

GH: A pageant or something, and all of a sudden everybody is out there beating heads. That wasn't the local people who had any interest in that occurring. That was a bunch of people who came in from AIM, ya know, and you can liken it maybe to some of the struggles of Black people. You know, somebody comes in from, you know, the Republic of New Africa and starts a bloody riot, you know. Well, it's not the people that are living there whose bloody homes get burned down who want to riot. It’s some yahoos that come in from the outside.

DW: Right.

GH: That happened, but that is the only confrontational incident that I am aware of that occurred around here.

DW: My grandma was Alice Shelafoe.

GH: Oh, yeah.

DW: Yeah, she was very angry. I mean, every time we talk about what happened with the pageant, she…she would let us… [end of side A, tape cuts out]

Transcript at 30 minutes, 16 seconds: (30:16)

GH: It was a true embarrassment to most, you know, tribal members. You know, because these people, they go to church together, their, you know, their kids play football or basketball together, and all of a sudden you have this outbreak of violence. And that’s one of the reasons, I think, why things developed the way they did, growing rather than exploding. Because there is so much intermarriage, so much, you know, rather than tribal people living in this particular settlement and all non-tribal people living over here. You know, people live next door to one another on Baraga Avenue in Baraga, you know, and…and that produces a totally different kind of atmosphere and desire about, you know, “We want to achieve this goal, but we don't want to have a bloody riot to achieve the goal,” so.

DW: Yeah. Well, that sounds like my people.

GH: Yeah. And, you know, I--

DW: Except for the problems with the recent years, but we won't get into that. [laughs]

GH: There were… There were clusters of Indian people, for example, who lived along the Mission Road. You know, that traditionally was an area where…where Indian people had lived back to Bishop Baraga’s days, but it wasn't until all of the tribal housing was built that tribal people tended to concentrate themselves there. You know, I guess I just can't explain any better than I already have that, you know, that you would have Joe Italian-person and then you would have Martha Indian-person and then you would have Freddy French-person who would all be, you know, living on the same road. The biggest area where there--of dispute is somewhat of a reflection on the area where we live, and that was over hunting and fishing. You know, that's where the…where things were more explosive.

DW: William Jondreau case was real important to the tribe.

GH: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

DW: And for Indian fishing in Michigan and all over, actually.

GH: Absolutely. Absolutely correct. But people would get more excited over whether one person took three fish as opposed to the one fish that they could take than they did over where somebody would get prosecuted for a criminal offense. But that’s a reflection on Yoopers.

Transcript at 33 minutes, 10 seconds: (33:10)

DW: Okay. I’m just wondering about the judges, too. You had Ted Holappa, and do you remember how long he was in?

GH: No.

DW: Was it a couple of terms?

GH: A couple of terms. I…I really don't specifically recall.

DW: And then it was--wasn't it was it William Jondreau's daughter or…?

GH: Yeah, I think she came back here from California. Ted was an exceptional judge. Now, see, I don't know where you are politically, and I don't care where you are politically insofar as, you know, what’s going on with [inaudible word].

DW: I’m close with Ted. I went to school with him up at Bay Mills.

GH: With who?

DW: With Ted. I’m in school at Bay Mills with him right now.

GH: Who?

DW: Ted Holappa.

GH: Oh, ok. But, I mean, in terms of the recent disturbances and takeover and that.

DW: Oh, yes.

GH: I don't know where you are. It doesn't matter to me. But after Ted, then Jondreau's daughter, I guess it was, came in. And my mom always told me if you can't say something good about somebody, don't say anything at all, so I will not comment on her term. And then, I’m trying to think of… Did--

DW: I’m pretty sure (??) Brad [Dakota] got in right after her?

GH: Who?

DW: Brad?

GH: Yeah, I think it was Brad.

DW: It was Brad. So, it’s just been the three judges.

Transcript at 34 minutes, 41 seconds: (34:41)

GH: Yeah, ok. Then it…then it was Brad who was next. I was very sorry to see Ted go. I--you know, I spoke highly of him earlier. He was just the perfect person at the time. I also think--and again, I don't know where you are politically, so you may throw rotten tomatoes and cabbages at me--but I also think that Brad has done an exceptional job for the period of time that he has been there because as the court has evolved, the way the judges have had to function and all has also evolved, and I think he is a very bright, bright fella. I know there are people who, you know, hold him accountable for a lot of what’s occurred over the last few years, but I--my contact with him has always led me to believe he’s an extremely fair-minded individual in addition to being bright. So, I think that you can't… The majority of the tribal judges, both Ted and Brad, despite the fact that they didn't have legal training, could have sat as district judges, you know.

DW: Really?

GH: Anywhere in the state. And again, I don't know where you are politically, but the greatest reason for the success of the tribe in terms of moving into the twentieth century is Fred Dakota. Absolutely, without question. You know, he was the one who always was willing to take the chance. He would never ask someone else to do something that he wouldn't do. He was smart. He always took care of everybody else before, you know, he was taken care of. If there weren't enough turkeys to go around, then his people got the turkeys and he did without a turkey. So, the success that the tribe has enjoyed would probably be 10 years behind where it is now and not as successful had it not been for Fred. Like all of us, he’s not perfect, and you do some things that, you know, that he did that he shouldn’t have done. And--

DW: But that doesn't take away from his earlier years.

GH: Right

DW: And I think many people will agree.

GH: It doesn’t. It doesn't at all take away from, you know, from the dedication that he had, the hours that he worked, you know. And again, there were many other people that were just…in different ways brought different things to the tribal council and tribal government. I have the greatest respect for Helene [Welsh], you know. She was steady, she was…she was smart, she always brought her own particular view to things, and we liked each other a lot. But boy, did she dump on me and tell me some things. And I'd say, “Helene, you know, why are you doing this to me?” She'd say, “You've got broad shoulders. You can take it,” you know. [DW laughs] But…but then--and there were other people who made contributions. Kelly Perrault made contributions. There’s so many people. I--by mentioning names, I'm leaving out the names that I don't mean to do of people who over the years just made tremendous contributions to the tribe, so.

DW: Clearly also the council members for--through those years, every council member?

GH: Without question. Without question. I mean, there were some duds. There are some duds in the Michigan legislature, you know. There are duds on the county boards of commissioners. But by and large, they were just a real capable, forward thinking, dedicated group of people.

Transcript at 39 minutes, 6 seconds: (39:06)

DW: I think basically that pretty much covers it, because I was going to ask you about the problems, and you covered that. Growing pains, they've had that and are still having those.

GH: Lord knows that.

DW: Yep. There’s a lot of challenges.

GH: Yeah. This may be a bit simplistic, but I've always viewed this like a pie, a power pie. You know, there’s only so much pie, and there’s only so much power. You can't create more power. So if the State of Michigan starts off having that whole pie, then that means that if the tribe’s gonna get any pie, they have to take some slices out, you know, take it away from the state. And it’s always a difficult process when one entity or person is exercising power and another entity or person is attempting to take some of that power away, even if they’re entitled to it. And…and that’s…that’s really what the process has been over all these years.

DW: And still continues to be.

GH: And still continues to be.

DW: We have issues over the taxes right now. That’s exactly what’s happening.

GH: Oh.

DW: You know, the tribe has exercised the power, and now the state’s trying to take that back, and it's…it’s just another time of growing for all of us, but it's got everybody paying attention again.

GH: Well, I don't care whether you’re a Native American or from China or, you know, from Mozambique, money is money is money. I mean, people always get excited about monetary issues. Sometimes they are not the most important issues, but unless your ox is getting gored a little bit, you know, as long as things are running along smoothly, people don't get too terribly excited.

Transcript at 41 minutes, 10 seconds: (41:10)

DW: Is there any final comment about these years?

GH: I couldn't have had a more interesting legal career, and that's because of having the tribe as a client and such close association with the tribe. It brought me in contact with lots of interesting people and ideas and areas of law that I never would have, you know, never would have had contact with if I had set up a practice in Rapid River as opposed to Baraga County. I do feel very strongly that the tribe must re-examine its constitution. See, the tribal government, what you’re doing is very interesting because everybody’s forgotten about how the tribal code came about and what the circumstances were, when--how did we get tribal police, how did we get a tribal court. And that’s--

DW: Yeah. How come we’re where we’re at now?

GH: Yeah. And that’s because tribes--not just here, but everywhere--don't have a bureaucracy like the state has or like the federal government has. You know, the bureaucrats that come to work every day and they--whether the Republicans are in power or the Democrats are in power, they still come to work at the drivers’ license bureau, you know, and do their jobs and they do it for 30 years or--they at the state treasury department or, you know, the county clerk's office, or whatever. The tribe doesn't have that, you know. It depends. Whenever there’s a shift in power, you know, all of everybody who knows anything about what happened during that particular era, you know, is out the door, and you got a new group who comes in, and everybody tends to try to reinvent the wheel. This whole constitutional issue was addressed back in… [pauses] I might be off on this…

DW: It was in the [19]70s.

GH: I was gonna say the late [19]70s.

DW: And again, in the next--it was an on-going…

GH: Yeah, and we had meetings and meetings and meetings about this, and there wasn't a great deal of agreement about anything, but we got to the point where we were going to schedule a secretary's election, you know, with respect to certain changes that were proposed, and that would have eliminated all of the problems that, you know, that took place three or four years ago. But then, the council decided, “Well, we don't want to do this,” and that’s one of the problems with the tribe and that is that the tribal council is all powerful. You don't have a separation of powers like you do in a federal or state government where there are checks and balances. Because the tribal council can ultimately say, you know, “We don't like that person,” or “We don't…don't like that idea,” or “It takes some power from us.” You know, if we've got a court that has authority to tell us that we’re doing something illegal, then by God, we don't want that, because we’re the tribal council. That is…that is a source of many problems that the tribe has, okay, that there isn't a clear separation of power between the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch, and there is not a bureaucracy that is there to carry on when the politics shift and one group of people gets booted out and another comes in. If I were a tribal member, and I would be--and I were interested in trying to better my tribal government, those are the areas that I would try to, you know, to work on because as soon as tribal coun—or tribal chairperson A gets booted out, then his or her best buddy who runs the commodities program gets booted out, or whatever.

DW: Yeah. Which isn't a good thing.

GH: And—yeah. And somebody who is a friend or a brother-in-law of the new tribal chairperson gets the job. So, those things--to the extent that anybody cares about my recommendations--clear delineation and separation of powers between the branches, a revision of the tribal constitution and try to establish more of a bureaucracy which is there regardless of who happens to be in power. You know, another thing that I used to explain to the council--that again offended some of the elders particularly, and Hel—I still, you know, I still remember Helene yelling at me about this because one of her relatives was on the tribal council back when the constitution was enacted, but what it was that--

DW: It was her father.

GH: Was it her father?

DW: It was her father.

Transcript at 46 minutes, 46 seconds: (46:46)

GH: Ok, that council didn't develop that tribal constitution. “They did too. I remember, you know, my dad told me about how they did this, and they did that, and they had meetings with the feds, and they told the feds ‘No, we don't want to do that, we want to change it and do this.’” But if you look at tribal constitutions that were enacted in that general time frame, the late, you know, [19]30s, whether you are in Wisconsin or Minnesota or Michigan, they all look awfully strangely alike. You know, one of them might have seven council members, another might have nine, and one might say that half are elected from this side of the tracks and the other half from that side, and the other one has, you know, actual districts, but they’re all pretty much alike, and they were developed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And then, you know, her dad, as an example, may have been a very bright, great human being, but he weren't no match for a bunch of Bureau of Indian Affairs’ attorneys. You know, how often had he participated in developing a tribal constitution in the past as opposed to, you know, these--guys back then--these guys who would go from reservation to reservation during that period of time and have their, you know, their framework and just fill in some different names and places? That tribal constitution is an anachronism that must be revised.

Transcript at 48 minutes, 19 seconds: (48:19)

DW: I hate to get into this, but the membership clause in itself defines--you know, they never followed it.

GH: I know they didn't.

DW: So they didn't know exactly what they were voting on, I think, in those days. That’s my guess.

GH: They did.

DW: They did know that they were voting on?

GH: Yeah, they did. Because I can't tell you how many times I answered that same question, you know, in council meetings, community meetings. You don't have to be some sort of a legal genius to read that language and figure out what it means.

DW: So did--

GH: Excuse me, can I help you? [hard to understand side conversation with someone who enters into the room to tell them something about coffee]

DW: So they understood what the meaning of the membership clause was and chose not to follow it?

GH: Absolutely. Absolutely.

DW: And it's ok for...

GH: Of course. Oh yeah, of course. I mean, I--that has--it has never been a secret. We went through it council meeting after council meeting, administration after administration. But you have to look at things in historical perspective. Back then, and maybe even still today, the number of heads that you could count as being tribal members each accounted for more money from the BIA.

DW: Right.

GH: Alright. So at that point in time, the council's view was, “Look, if we've got 2000 members, we're gonna get twice as much money as we're gonna get if we have a thousand members.” Yeah, but this person was born at the Baraga County Memorial Hospital. The Baraga County Memorial Hospital is not within the kines--confines of the reservation. You know, therefore, this person--and I 'm using a simplistic example--does not qualify to be a member of the tribal council or to be a member of the tribe. “Yeah, but wait a minute, that person for years has been a loyal supporter of the tribe and has participated in all of our activities and, you know, that person is a tribal council member. What do you mean they don't qualify to be a tribal member?” You show me here where they qualify. “Well, we don't care.” Okay. Then, they fooled with the voting districts, you know, and, …

DW: Oh, okay.

GH: …you know, enabled people to vote that shouldn't have been voting under tribal council.

DW: Including all of L'Anse and…

GH: Yeah.

DW: Yeah, ok. They expanded the districts, and they went beyond the reservation boundaries.

GH: Exactly. Okay. There was a council member, and I can't recall at the moment who it was...

DW: I have the resolution.

GH: Barbara Mantila.

DW: Ok.

GH: Barbara Mantila lived out in Pelkie. She was a council member. She wasn't qualified…

DW: To be a council…

GH: …to be a council member. Yeah, but Barbara is a good council member and, you know, we’re certainly not gonna kick her off the council. When Myrtle Tolonen was the enrollment clerk, you know, everybody knew that she was enrolling people, you know, left and right. And I--it wasn't that the council said to her, you know, “Bad Myrtle, bad Myrtle,” and “You can't do this.” The idea was if we got 2000 people instead of a thousand people--particularly if this person has dark skin and we have always, you know, recognized the whole Jondreau family as being Indian people--we are gonna make all these Jondreaus--and please, for whoever might read this or listen to it in the future, that was just the first tribal name that came to mind.

DW: Yeah. Just an example.

GH: As an example. I mean, you could say, the first…

DW: Because we know they’re well established. [laughs]

GH: Yeah. Okay. But the first--we know all of the Gauthiers. They have always been here. We don't care if their kids got--were born in Chicago when--another example. We don't care if their kids were all born in Chicago and that they had lived away from the reservation for 15 years, they’re good people and that’s seven more tribal members if we enroll them, and, you know, that’s 7,000 dollars more aid that we’re gonna get, okay? So historically, you've got that operating. We want as many tribal members as we can get. In order to get housing money, to build tribal housing, we have to demonstrate that, you know, that we’ve got a need, an X number of members.

DW: Oh.

GH: Ok. And this goes for road money. It goes for health money. It goes for everything. So, we want to get--we’re gonna drag these people, even if they are kicking and screaming, we want them to be members of the tribe. The tribe at that point didn't have a hell of a lot to offer. But then, okay then, things start getting better economically and the money begins to flow and jobs are here, working on triba1 housing for the tribal construction depart--company. You know, there’s medical money that comes in so that people can get free medical care. And all of a sudden, you know, more people want to be tribal members because there’s an economic benefit. And then pretty soon, you've got the casinos operating, and the casinos are generating a tremendous amount of money. And one view, of course, that this tribe takes is that we should use that money to fund services for the people. But it’s also a common…a common view that we should give a per-capita distribution to all tribal members. Okay. So then all of a sudden, things change. We got too many people that want to be tribal members, and these people are coming in and they’re gonna try and change the composition of the council so that the council is going to vote for per-capita distributions, you know, and then all of these people who haven’t gone through being an Indian in Baraga County are gonna be taking our money away. See, so that’s the…that’s a critical shift. [phone rings] That is the critical shift that took place. And then all of a sudden, everybody wants to look at the tribal constitution and then they start pointing at people and saying, “Well, you don't qualify for this reason, and you don't qualify for that reason.” When you look at that whole thing, you have some knowledge about the background of the tribe, where things came from, where they went to, and what was going on, a great deal of that was motivated strictly by money.

DW: So, it wasn't looking out for the wel--you know, the welfare of the people, or...

GH: You ask folks about that, and that’s what they'll say. It’s about money.

DW: And as a result, we had the problems a couple of years ago was all about money.

GH: Now, there are those who will say, “Not me! Money had nothing to do with… I'm just concerned about what's right.” And maybe there were some folks like that, but the impetus…

DW: And that could be.

GH: Yeah, the impetus was money. Because after years of enrolling everybody--you know, “Well, he's not a quarter blood, but he's just about a quarter blood and, you know, we want to build up our membership base so we're gonna make that person a member,” you know. “Well, they were born in Chicago, but, you know, that family, they've always been supporters of the tribe, so we're going to make that person a member.” After years of trying to build up the base when there was nothing to gain by being a tribal member, nothing of any significance, then you get to a point where there’s a shift and all of a sudden there’s lots of money out there. Then, you start looking at folks that are gonna share in that money or maybe take over the tribal council and vote for per-capita distributions, and then all these people out there who, you know, “Well, wait a minute. If that person gets a share, my share is gonna be smaller,” and then you start looking at the membership records again. But anybody who tells you that the tribe did not understand what the membership requirements were and that people were being enrolled who did not qualify under the constitution is fibbing to you.

Transcript at 57 minutes, 11 seconds: (57:11)

DW: We've got a long ways to go to straighten these things out and with the money issue there, they may never, is just a thing I’m sensing.

GH: Another thing that operates is that I don't care whether it’s a tribal community or whether it’s a farming community or whether it’s a bunch of hippies living out in, you know, the Colorado mountains, when you have a small group of people--as opposed to, you know, all of the people in the city of Marquette--the smaller your group of people, the more little things that happen over the course of time build up, you know, and cause rifts. For instance, the community at Keweenaw Bay is really not that large.

DW: No, it’s not.

GH: You're not talking about that many actual tribal members who live…

DW: Probably less than a thousand.

GH: Yeah, who actually live on the reservation. You've got families that, you know, that go back to the time that the Methodists landed in Pequaming and Bishop Baraga, you know, landed in Assinins. There are family feuds that go back that far because some of their one family was converted by the Methodists and one family was, you know, converted by the Catholics. It’s certainly different now than it was when I came up here, but there was a genuine division between people who lived on the L'Anse side and people who lived on the Baraga side. A new apartment opens up on the Baraga side. Somebody on the L'Anse side desperately needs it, but by God, they ain't gonna move to the Baraga side. So, you've got…you’ve got feuds, you know, and perceived slaps in the face that happened 40 years ago, you know, or 80 years ago. You know, and “Those people just aren’t any damn good.” It goes back that far. And so, consequently, within this small group of people, you just have some friction that has no rational basis but that forms the basis for sometimes things that happen in council meetings you know, 50 years later.

DW: So, that's gonna be a difficult one to overcome, too.

GH: Oh, yes. Yeah. You know, and things change. I mean, it’s changed even in the 25--last 25 years, you know. But there’s a small group of people.