Margaret White Interview Side 2

Margaret Elena White Interview, Side 2

Transcript at 0 minutes, 0 seconds: (00:00)

EW: …not too far from where we lived on St. Patrick Lake, and we used to come over there on Sunday because, you know, my dad and my mother when they were kids and they used to come there. I guess I didn’t know any better. Course, I was never told about anything. So, he got a liking for me and he wanted me for his wife, and I went to live with him.

DP: How old were you at this time?

EW: Fourteen years old. And then I stayed with him all winter, not being married. And the next summer, I didn’t know what was the matter with me because I never was told anything about it. I was in family way so we got in touch with the sheriff. I had heard that my dad was looking for me, and we got in touch with the sheriff. And the sheriff came and got us and he brought us to town (??) one (??) day (??). It (??) was (??) in (??) [inaudible word]… I don’t remember. Anyway, it was a jail, and I was in jail for one month. And my lawyer told me if I didn’t get married, I would be sent to reformatory school. So, I had heard a whole lot of bad stuff about reformatory school, so I got married instead.

DP: Now your first husband, he was an Indian?

EW: Yep, pure Indian. And I got married on July first, and my son was born August the 13th that same year.

DP: Do you have any idea what year this was about?

EW: What?

DP: You have any idea what year this was about?

EW: Yeah, it was 1925.

DP: 1925, okay.

EW: And anyway, we went up to Loon (??) Lake again, where we lived before, and we lived there until… [long pause] Oh, first of all, we went up to Loon (??) Lake, and then we started down the river whenever…when I took sick to have the baby. When--that was quite a ways in the woods, and we started down the river, and I took sick. And there was some American doctors there that--at the club at Water’s Neck (??) and [inaudible phrase] Dr. Devereaux [phonetic spelling] [inaudible phrase] and that’s when my first child was born. And 15 minutes after he was born, Louis (??) got up and went out to take my picture to [unclear phrase]. I never seen it though. And then, we went down to Saint Clair (??), Ontario, and I got the baby christened, and I got Mr. and Mrs. Gardner [phonetic spelling], yeah, to be the godfather and godmother. And then, we went back to Loon (??) Lake again, and we stayed there until [pause] I was in family way with my daughter. Then, we went to St. Patrick Lake with my mothers’ grave--

DP: And you were living in the woods all this time?

EW: Yeah, when I went to St. Patrick Lake to my mother, we were still in the woods. So, I had my daughter there.

Transcript at 5 minutes, 17 seconds: (05:17)

DP: What were some of the jobs that you were doing when you were married to your first husband? As being a wife and living in the woods.

EW: Well, I just did hunting and cooking and things like that whenever [completely inaudible phrase] while I was in the woods. And then after my daughter was born, we went to live at the Black River in a shack there, and my sister lived right close there to that place where she lived at that river, and we stayed there for the winter. And then the summer, we went back down on the lake. And then, we come back to--we came back to Black River Depot that my sister was born from there, and her family with her. My second—my third child my sister came up to take care of me, but she never had any children herself so she didn’t know what to do. And my brother-in-law, he was living there not too far away, so he came and he doctored me--that’s for my third child. And then, we stayed there at the Black River Depot for a while. We went back to [inaudible word] Lake. All this while, we was hunting and children getting bigger and [inaudible word] and things like that to keep up with the food.

Transcript at 7 minutes, 23 seconds: (07:23)

DP: Was it pretty much the same kind of way that you used the skins for money and…?

EW: Yeah, the same thing. And anyway, I--we stayed at Indian Lake for a while, and then we came back to Black River. Then, I got in the family way for my other daughter, and then we stayed at the depot or we stayed at the [inaudible word] down by the… Black River Depot. And there was nobody there. I was all alone. There was nobody there or village kind of, just me and my husband and my kids. And then, the time come for my daughter to be born--that was my second daughter--I doctored myself because there was nobody else there that knew anything about it. And after that, we stayed there all summer. Then, my husband, he was fire ranger for that summer. Then, he went back to fire ranger because we had too many kids to move around and hunt, at least that’s what I figured, but--

Transcript at 9 minutes, 13 seconds: (09:13)

DP: So because you had so many kids you couldn’t afford and stay in the woods anymore, you had to get a white man’s job?

EW: Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, I got in the family way for my last boy, and we moved down to Deep River, Ontario. And from Deep River, we moved to [inaudible word], and we stayed there for quite a bit by the Ottawa River near an Indian family, Mr. and Mrs. Doe. And Mrs. Doe took care of me when I had my last son. Then after that, we moved up to Ferguson’s [phonetic spelling] place, and I started a bakery. We baked sand and—bread-baked sand, in the sand, and that’s how I kept my children alive and full with the money I made from food that the tourists have (??) there (??).

Transcript at 10 minutes, 39 seconds: (10:39)

DP: So that’s pretty much about the time in your life when you started changing from living in the woods to changing to a white man’s life?

EW: Yeah, uh-huh. But we were still living with the Indians mostly, because all along there, all along the Ottawa River there were Indians there, and--but I learned how to do things different than the Indian way then, and I got a job here and there. I had to work to support my family because my husband, he was he was no good after he got in with the white people. He didn’t want to work anymore. He didn’t want to hunt anymore. He didn’t want to do nothing anymore.

Transcript at 11 minutes, 32 seconds: (11:32)

DP: Why do you think that was?

EW: I don’t know. I think it’s because he was in the woods all his life. I think that’s what was the matter, didn’t want to get involved with the white people, I think. Anyway, we went to the woods and we end up there with my oldest son, and that’s when he got that ingrown toenail. He cut that, and it turned into…

DP: Gangrene?

EW: …gangrene, and he had to get the doctor to cut his leg above the knee, and a couple years after he… he died. Of course, I had met Leo before that, about two times before that. And anyway, we started talking and we got together. And then after that marriage with Leo, we lived in Brown River.

DP: So your first husband died from that gangrene, …

EW: Yeah.

DP: …and then you met Leo.

EW: Yeah. Well, I met him before that, two times before that, but I still had my husband.

DP: Mm-hm. And you had the five kids, and were the kids old enough to leave you now? Or, you were with them… [inaudible crosstalk]

EW: Oh yeah, they--the older kids were all old enough except two of them I had with me, two girls. But the boys, they could take care of themself. And anyways, we went up to Brown River, and Leo worked at the mill there. He got a job on a boat first, and then he started working up in there. And we stayed there for a long time, five or six years, I guess. And then, I got Mary--that’s Leo’s daughter--and we still stayed there for a while. And then, we end up to another place. We--oh, Redwood. Leo went up to the camp there, and I stayed at the place there that [inaudible word]. We stayed in the kitchen part of their house. They rented us that part, and they were living in the front. I stayed there all winter while Leo was at the camp. And then we went down to Roston (??) [inaudible phrase] again.

Transcript at 15 minutes, 18 seconds: (15:18)

DP: Now, this is kind of city-type life now or suburbia? [inaudible crosstalk]

EW: No, it was kind of a--like here. It’s not a big place, but they had a big hydro. They had a big hydro dam there, so he worked at the dam.

DP: But it’s no more…it’s no more in the woods?

EW: No. And then after that, Leo took--he [inaudible word] for the state. So—well, first of all, we didn’t go to the [inaudible word]. He came to Seney (??), and he worked there at Seney (??). And then, we went up to Medicine Hat, Alberta, and we stayed there for a while in the winter.

Transcript at 16 minutes, 17 seconds: (16:17)

DP: Now through your whole life here, through your younger years, almost half of your life, you lived in the woods. And now all of the sudden, you change life with your second husband, and you went from the woods and then living in kind of a white man’s society. How did this affect you, you know, after living half of your life in the woods? How did this affect you? What are your feelings about that?

EW: Well, it’s kinda glad to get away from the woods. That’s the only feelings I have, and I wouldn’t have to be stuck in the woods all the time and be eaten by the mosquitos and black flies and horse flies, all that stuff you get out living in the woods.

DP: What were some of the stuff you liked about living in the white man’s society, you know?

EW: Well, it’s…that’s much better. You don’t have to hunt or do any of that thing, and white man work you get paid for it, so you can buy whatever you want.

Transcript at 17 minutes, 34 seconds: (17:34)

DP: Now, you lived with a white man and coming out of the woods not being an Indian, how did…how were you treated as an Indian? How did the white man treat you?

EW: The same as anybody else, as far as I know. They didn’t have anything against me. Of course, they had lots of fun. I heard them say things, but I didn’t pay no mind to it because I didn’t know how to live with that people. I never lived with them, just with my parents, so it really was a better fit for me to live amongst all the people. And I couldn’t talk very good English. Some of them laughed at me and that hurt a little bit, but I got used to it. I didn’t pay any attention to it after a while. It was kind of shy (??) all the time. You know, my first husband, I shouldn’t say it, but I never was able to talk to nobody. The only guy that I could talk to was him and my parents, and that made me kind of a… an outcast, you call that? So, it was pretty hard to get along with the people whenever I got out and (??) all (??) that (??).

Transcript at 19 minutes, 19 seconds: (19:19)

DP: Do you find that there were any drawbacks that--after you lived in the woods and then you came into the white man’s society--there were any things that you didn’t know how to do or fit into?

EW: No, I kind of learned pretty fast at anything I done. I learn to make baskets to sell that would bring me money to feed the kids--and that was my first husband when we came up to and amongst the people. But with my second husband, well, everything was easy. He was a good provider.

Transcript at 20 minutes, 10 seconds: (20:10)

DP: What do you think about Indian reservations?

EW: Well, the Indian reservations that I see, they make nice houses for the Indians, but they don’t give them any land for their property or anything to plant or anything, to grow anything. You have to buy everything. And they get money from the government whenever they can’t work, but that little bit of money they get, that’s not very much. I can tell you that much because I lived on that reserve.

DP: How was it when you lived on that reserve?

EW: It wasn’t great, but then I stayed in an old house. Cold, no wood, and every time you needed something to eat, you’d have to go and get the emergency order. You’d get the emergency order maybe for ten dollars, maybe five dollars to feed five kids with that. But something I should have told you before, when I was with my first husband--I didn’t think about it. So, I lived on the reserve for all winter, and all that time I don’t know where my husband was.

DP: Do you think that during--being on a reservation, living there--do you think it made up for when the white man took away all the Indian’s land? Was that a big sacrifice that they made?

EW: Well, it wasn’t the way that the white man took their land there at that place. It’s a place near Goldman Lake Reserve, they call it, and it’s a--there was the Indian agent that was a white man, and them Indian agent, they used to take the stock that the Indian used to get and sell it instead of giving it to the Indians. That’s what them white agents used to do.

DP: So the Indian was getting a raw deal again.

EW: Yeah, and you see they were supposed to give me some clothes for my kids. Well, they didn’t give me the clothes for them. And then anyway, it’s a good thing I had clothes for them before I came there. And I asked for some blankets and wood, and they wouldn’t give me any. While I was there, my kid had scarlet fever, and the doctor came up because my cousin, she got the doctor to come, and she said bring enough (??) food for a quarantine of forty days. And she bring (??) food, milk. The kids not very much of anything. But they were usually for the Indian pretty rotten then, the white man, as far as I know. Because I stayed right there, I know.

DP: Do you think Indian reservations have changed any since then?

EW: Yes. They built modern house for the Indians, and they look after them much better than they did at that time. Of course, the Indians got whiter since then. They got lawyers and everything in their tribe so they can take care of them.

DP: Do you think the Indians are now fitting into a white man’s society, or do you find it hard for them to fit in?

EW: Well, it isn’t hard for them to fit in. It’s the white man that’s hard to get along with.

DP: Why is that?

EW: Because they are always against me and were always. Always, as far as I’m concerned.

Transcript at 24 minutes, 58 seconds: (24:58)

DP: Do you have any regrets in your life that if you had anything that you could change in your life yourself you would not do again or you would do again?

EW: Mm. The only thing I would do if I had the chance to change, I wouldn’t have married my first husband.

Transcript at 25 minutes, 24 seconds: (25:24)

DP: Where do you think Indians are headed for, for the future?

EW: Well, I think they’re gonna be pretty much like white men pretty quick because they’re all fighting for their…to get their rights and everything like that. I think it’s only (??) get what they want.

DP: Is there anything--if you had the power in you right now, if you had the power to do anything as far as changing anything for the Indian, and you could have this power, what would that be?

EW: That they would have the same equal as white man, to do the same thing as a white man. And another thing, the Indian shouldn’t be paying tax, income tax, and they shouldn’t have to pay for their license for hunting. Like, you used to be…they never used to have to have a license. Now, they can’t even turn around, they got to have a license to fish, trap, or hunt.

DP: Thank you very much, Elena White. And this concludes my interview with Elena White and Leo White. Thank you very much.