Sid, Merty, & Milt Interview Tape 1

Merton, Milton, and Sidney Holman Interview, Tape 1

Transcription note

I had a hard time distinguishing between Merton and Sidney’s voices. Some of the identifications of the speakers are likely wrong.

Transcript at 0 seconds: (00:00)

Russell Magnaghi (RM): This is going to be an interview with three people who will give their names at the end of this introduction. It’s done in Negaunee, Michigan, on December 21st, 2001. So, give your name and birthdate.

Merton Holman (MEH): I’m Merton Holman, was born July 24, 1919.

Sidney Holman (SH): Sidney Holman, born October 30, 1930.

Milton Holman (MIH): Milton Holman, born July 24, 1919.

RM: Okay. I’d like to start with a little background about your parents and where they were from in Cornwall and when they came, something about them in Cornwall, maybe what your dad was doing before he came here, what life was like, and then why they, you know, why they came to the United States.

MEH: To the best of my recollection, my mother was from Redruth and my father was from Cornwall.

RM: How do you spell the place where your mother--

MEH: R-E-D-R-U-T-H. And there was a little distance between the towns there, and we’re not sure how they got together in those days. But obviously, they did.

RM: Now, what was the town your dad was from? You said was it the town of Cornwall?

MEH: What is the county? Is it Cornwall or Camborne? I can’t--I don’t remember.

Together: Camborne. Yeah.

MEH: Camborne is the town.

RM: Yeah. Okay, that would be the town.

MEH: It's Camborne and Redruth. My dad was from Camborne.

RM: And how do you spell that?

SH: C-A-M-P-B-O-R-N-E. Is it Camp? No, C-A-M-B-O-R-N-E.

RM: Okay.

SH: And they came to this country in 1908, and as far as I know, they settled right here on Cherry Street where these two guys were born.

RM: In this house?

MEH: Down the street.

RM: Oh.

SH: How many kids were born on Cherry Street?

MEH: Seven. And one thing we have to add though, they brought one child with them, Muriel.

RM: Okay. Now wait, but before we go on, what were your parents’ names?

MEH: Joseph and Louisa. They brought one child with them. That would be Muriel, eh.

Transcript at 3 minutes and 6 seconds: (03:06)

RM: Now do you know--did they ever say why they--was there any re--you know, reason why they came and how they got to Negaunee?

MEH: I don’t remember. The story that I heard was that originally, they had planned to go to South Africa and whosever relative was there, mother’s or father’s, died, and they wound up coming here. That’s the way I heard it. I don’t know if that’s a fact or not, but that’s what I heard. My father was a miner in England, and he started mining when he was 12 years old with his father and grandfather, and they obviously were going to go to South Africa for mining purposes. There was a gold mine. And when that fell through, as far as I know, that’s why they wound up here in Negaunee.

MIH: To work in the iron.

MEH: To work in the iron mine, yeah. And I don’t know how long after it was that Arthur was born, the first boy was born, and at the age of two he died of—diphtheria, was it?

SH: Yeah.

MEH: And was it Ma’s brother that came here to work in the mine? And he died in the mine. He got buried in there, and he’s still there, I guess, eh. I don’t think he ever got removed from there. I think that it was a cave-in, and he died there. His first shift, as a matter of fact.

RM: Really?

MEH: Yeah.

RM: What was his name?

MEH: Thomas. Was it Thomas? It was in that book. Thomas… Thomas… Was it Thomas? I don’t know.

RM: So, he came… He came bef--after they arrived?

MEH: I think so.

RM: Yeah, okay.

MEH: Yeah, I think… Yeah, I think that he arrived just shortly thereafter. And naturally, my dad, when he first got here, he was also working in the mine. He started in the iron mine.

Transcript at 5 minutes and 27 seconds: (05:27)

RM: Did they--did your dad ever talk about, you know, what it was like coming here and getting established in the area?

SH: I was too young at the time. These guys might remember something about it. There are some things that we know for sure, as far as getting established here. I mean, he ended up with 11 children, counting Arthur who died, which left 10, and the--working two days a week sometimes. So figure, you know, with the bunch of kids they had and working erratic hours, I mean--I mean, sometimes he would work a full week, sometimes he would work two days a week, and so forth. It was tough going, financially.

Transcript at 6 minutes and 23 seconds: (06:23)

RM: Now, did they keep like a large garden or any cows or anything to help them out?

SH: Yeah. CCI [Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Company] gave them land at the top of the street where they lived, eh? You guys remember.

MIH: Yeah. Yeah, I--the CCI, when they were in tough times, they run water from the Maas Mine all the way over here to where they gave everybody a plot that worked for them so they could grow vegetables, and they run water pipes down along every plot with a faucet so that you could water your garden and take care of it so you would have something through the tough winters.

Transcript at 7 minutes and 8 seconds: (07:08)

RM: And that was like during the Depression or just anytime?

MIH: Yeah, no. They did that just during the start of the Depression. That gave everybody a really good lift. Cleveland-Cliffs really took good care of their people.

RM: Now, did they keep--did your family keep some cows and, you know--

SH: Chickens, eh?

MIH: Well, that’s about all we had was chickens.

RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

MEH: Everybody had a big barn out in the back of the house, and it seemed like everybody had chickens, eh, and so forth and--or cows. Some people had cows, too.

RM: But your family didn’t.

All: No.

RM: And then naturally, with that many children, the--they didn’t sell the eggs and the chickens and what not. They were for home consumption?

MEH: Yeah.

Transcript at 8 minutes and 6 seconds: (08:06)

RM: Now, we had talked about—earlier, we had talked about your--wait a minute. Excuse me. Is there anything else you want to add about that segment, about, you know, your father working in the mine? Which mine did he work in?

MEH: Negaunee’s.

RM: The Negaunee Mine. Okay…

MIH: Is there anything they want to know about--wasn’t there a fire underground there, Merty? Do you remember?

MEH: I can remember that fire.

SH: The fire was by the old Negaunee Mine, and the air shaft pulled the smoke through there into the mine. They had an airshaft down in the Vraja. Yeah, I remember. I went up to the corner with Ma that night at Maas’ Corner up there. That’s as far as we went because we heard there was fire in the mine and so on.

MEH: The shaft, it burned. Didn’t it?

SH: Yeah, yeah.

MEH: It was blowing tar paper all over the place. Yeah.

SH: Yeah, we heard that the fire was there.

RH: So, it was a surface fire?

SH: Yeah.

RM: It sucked the--but the smoke got sucked into the mine.

MEH: Probably some of it did.

RM: Yeah.

MEH: But not much of it.

RM: But it didn’t do…didn’t do…didn’t kill anyone?

MEH: No, it didn’t kill anybody.

RM: Oh, so no one was injured in this. It was just frightening.

SH: Right.

Transcript at 9 minutes and 24 seconds: (09:24)

RM: Now, did your dad--when your dad was working in the mine--did he ever talk about, you know, it being dangerous or, you know, problems underground or anything?

MEH: Well, he talked about when he started in England, about--he was working with his father and his grandfather, and the English attitude is one of, “Oh, well,” you know, because he was swinging the sledges. His father was holding the bit, and he would turn it, and he would hit it with the sledge and it would turn, and then his grandfather would hit it, and his father would turn. This one time when he was coming down, he hit his grandfather’s sledge, and it glanced off and hit his father’s wrist and broke his father’s wrist, and his dad says, “Well, it shows you’re swinging at it, boy.” That’s all he said to him. [all laugh]

RM: So, he kind of considered working in the mines here safer and better than in England?

MEH: Yeah, I suppose they heard about it being a better life here, more elbow room and stuff, I would imagine. I personally never heard from my parents what it was like in England except where they lived, a little bit about that.

RM: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

MEH: And I did try to talk to my mom about that when we were staying with her before she died. I didn’t write the stuff down.

Transcript at 10 minutes and 54 seconds: (10:54)

RM: Yeah. Would you remember some of that? Just tell us about it, you know, what you remember.

MEH: No, I don’t. I even asked her how her and Pa got together, you know, because they lived in different towns. And I said, “Well, how…how would you possibly get together? There’s no cars or nothing,” and she explained, but I don’t remember, you know, what it was all about.

RM: What did you--do you remember some of the things that she talked about, the, you know, life in the old country?

MEH: No, not a lot.

MIH: How about her father being a cobbler? And her mother was a dressmaker over there.

RM: So, they weren’t involved in mining. Her family wasn’t involved in mining.

MIH: Evidently not.

RM: Yeah, yeah. And now, she was--just to clarify--she was a Leverton.

MIH: Yep.

RM: Yeah. Okay. Okay. And now, were there other--were there other Levertons that had come over here and were already settled?

SH: Well, not that I… The ones from Ishpeming…

MEH: Her brother was here, Johnny.

SH: Did he get here before her?

MIH: I thought…

SH: I don’t know. I don’t know if he lived here. Johnny was down in Detroit, eh?

MEH: Yeah.

MIH: Well, I mean, but who did Grandpa send money to to come over here?

MEH: I don’t know.

MIH: He sent some money over there so one of his brothers could come over here.

MEH: Well, he sent money back there so Uncle Al and Uncle Sid could come here, eh? His brothers.

Transcript at 12 minutes and 41 seconds: (12:41)

RM: Oh. So now, who is…who is this then?

MEH: My dad had sent money back to England…

RM: Oh.

MEH: …so his brothers could come over.

RM: Okay, but they were like the first family that came over?

MEH: Yeah, as far as I know, my parents were, yeah.

MIH: There was somebody that had written up a story about helping them come over on a boat. Did you see that?

SH: I don’t remember seeing it.

MIH: Like he was in charge of a group.

SH: Oh, is that right? Alf was?

MIH: Alfie, yeah.

RM: Where was that--was that something published?

MEH: I think it was?

SH: You probably saw a picture of him in Mitzi’s book, that real flashy guy who lived out in California.

RM: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SH: Flashy shirt on.

RM: Yeah. Yeah, he was the guy.

SH: Yeah.

RM: And then, he left here and went to…Grass Valley, was it?

MEH: Yeah.

RM: Okay, and Grass Valley was also another center of Cornish settlement.

MEH: Yeah. And still is according to Mitzi.

Transcript at 13 minutes and 48 seconds: (13:48)

RM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, you were--one of the things that was brought up was that your mother talked with a Cornish dialect.

MEH: Oh, yeah.

RM: And could you talk a little bit about that? Did your dad talk with the…

MEH: Oh, yeah.

RM: …with that? Could you talk a little, you know, say a little something about that?

MEH: Well for example, if you asked Ma where Pa was and he was gone downtown, she would say he was “gone downlong,” which means he’s gone down along the street, but that’s all she would say was he’s “gone downlong.” If you wanted to know where something was--what did she say? Upstairs…up…upstairs and downstairs… “Up over the stairs,” she would always say. “Down over the stairs.” But there was always that brogue in there, you know. If you asked or someone was telling you something that you doubted, she would say, “Ges on with thee.” You know, I don’t know how you would spell that, [laughs] you know, but, “Ges on with thee.” There’s a lot of different things like that that would pop out, and you’d have to--and if you didn’t live with them, I’m sure you wouldn’t understand them.

MIH: And another thing she used to say, instead of saying put that away, “put it out of sight.”

RM: And what was the term they used for going into the woods?

MEH: “Out the bush.”

RM: “Out the bush.”

MEH: Yeah, that was always “out the bush.” Yeah, we still go out the bush.

Transcript at 15 minutes and 35 seconds: (15:35)

RM: Now, are there any others? Do you remember anything?

MEH: I’m sure there are. Just a chance to think about it… [whole phrase here uncertain]

RM: Let’s go back to--

SM: To Camborne Hill?

RM: Yeah, to Camborne Hill.

MEH: Yeah, it was a song that Ma used to sing, went something like, “Up Camborne hill coming down, the horses stood still and the wheels went around.” As Milty said, obviously, it was a very steep hill that they probably had problems with. And then, there was: naughty Jack went out to play in the meadow yesterday--this is all in her brogue, of course. Father or Mother told him not to go. Mother told him. Father told him. I’m not sure. I don’t know which one.

MIH: [singing] Mother told him not to go near the brook where rushes grow, [switches to rhythmic speech] but he did and he tumbled in, and the wet got to his chin. Now, he has to stay in the bed such a cold is in his head. Sneezing makes his face quite red. Tishum, tishum, tishum.

SH: Yeah. She used to sing that one, yeah. [laughs] She would sing it right through, yeah, for everybody.

RM: Uh-huh.

SH: And then, there was a second verse to it that--at a little party we were having on Fourth of July that these guys cooked up that I didn’t know about it--about sappy Sid, you know.

RM: Oh.

MEH: We just did...[inaudible word]. Yeah.

RM: Well, go ahead and do that one.

SH: It went like--these guys were all starting to sing the second verse, and I said, “There is no second verse to this,” and they said, “There sure is.” So, they sang sappy Sid, which is [inaudible word] to these guys.

MEH: Sappy Sid went out to play in the--

MIH: Maples.

MEH: Maples at Goose Lake Bay.

MIH: Yesterday—oh, at Goose Lake Bay.

SH: At Goose Lake Bay. Mother told him not to go on the hill where the maples grow, but he did and he hugged them tight, and he squeezed with all his might. All the sap ran to his head. And I forget how it went from there, but they had it cooked up.

MIH: Now, he has to stay in the bed with all the saps gone to his head.

SH: Yeah. Yeah, they ended up with that one. Yeah. But, that’s the way these guys are.

Transcript at 18 minutes and 3 seconds: (18:03)

RM: Now, were there any other songs that you remember like that, you know?

MIH: Humpty Dumpty, she used to sing that a lot.

SH: Yeah, but that was just a U. S. song.

MEH: Sing-song (??), yeah.

MIH: How about Bobby Shafto?

MEH: Oh, Bobby Shafto.

MEH: [chanting] “Bobby Shafto went to sea with silver buckles on his knees. He'll come back and marry me, pretty Bobby Shafto.” Yeah. She used to sing that a lot to us when we were kids.

RM: Mm-hm. What was the variation of the Camborne Hill? You said there was a regular song and then your--

SH: Oh, yeah. The slang one my brother Guz (??) [likely Joe, AKA Guzzy, mentioned elsewhere] used to sing. The wheels of Camborne Hill coming down—evidently, there was lots of horsemen who were on the hill, and he sang the wheels…the wheels stood still and the horse shoe went around is what he would sing. I don’t know, just a little version that he picked up.

MIH: That ain’t nice.

SH: That he picked up from the song.

RM: Yeah.

Transcript at 19 minutes and 11 seconds: (19:11)

SH: But the cooking was all done on a woodstove, of course.

RM: Uh-huh.

SH: And imagine a family like that around the table. We had a bench on one side that a bunch of us would sit on, and my father would always be trying to enforce order around the table. And this one time, he got up to do something, and I just came out and I saw the chair. So, I took the chair and sat on it, and he sat back down where his chair was, and he whacked his head against the sink on the way down. [laughs] But he didn’t say nothing about it. It’s just that he lost his chair. And my Ma would--I mean, with all the kids, she’d spoil us all. She’d have how many different meals on that stove, eh? This one doesn’t like that, so she would cook something else for that kid, and this one doesn’t like that, so she would cook something else for that, and she’d have all the different things on the stove there, but she always dished it up to--the plates were there, and she’d bring each one around and dish it up for each one because there was only so much, eh.

RM: I’m sure she didn’t give you a chance to take two--more than you should.

SH: That’s right, you got what you had coming. Yeah.

Transcript at 20 minutes and 29 seconds: (20:29)

RM: Then, what kind of foods was she cooking, you know, for the family that way? Were there, you know, Cornish recipes or…?

MEH: Well, a lot of stew, eh.

SH: Twenty minutes’ gallop.

MEH: Twenty minutes’ gallop, what was that?

SH: Stew.

MEH: That’s what it was, eh?

SH: We used to come home from school, and twenty minutes’ gallop--“Oh, not stew again today, Mother!”

MEH: Is that what she called that?

MIH: Yeah.

SH: Yeah, twenty minutes’ gallop, yeah.

MEH: Twenty minutes’ gallop.

SH: Yeah.

MIH: It took about that long to tenderize the meat and the potatoes.

SH: Twenty minutes’ gallop…

RM: And what was that, with beef or…?

MEH: Yeah, beef stew.

RM: Beef stew, and this is when you came home for lunch from school?

SH: Yeah, from school.

RM: Oh, okay. Okay. Any other things that she would cook that you remember?

SH: Yeah. [something inaudible]

MIH: All the baked goods she used to make, platt [phonetic spelling] me down and heavy duff [phonetic spelling].

SH: That heavy cake you saw was always heavy duff.

MIH: It was.

RM: So cake is in Cornish would be duff.

All: I guess so. Yeah. Yeah.

SH: It was always heavy duff. Sugary hot water was one of the things we had after school. We would come home from school. We never had enough milk, so we’d have sugary hot water with a little bit of canned milk in there in the hot water and part of a spoon of sugar, and that was your after-school treat, you know. And sops.

RM: What?

SH: Sops, milky sops. A piece of bread with milk on it and sugar in a bowl.

MIH: A little bit of sugar.

SH: Yeah, that was another treat. Yeah, milky sops. Sops, I don’t know where that--I suppose because it's sopping wet, maybe. I don’t know.

MIH: Yeah, yeah.

RM: And this was--you’d have that after school?

SH: Yeah, or as a dessert maybe even sometimes.

MEH: And of course, there was always bread pudding.

SH: Yeah.

MEH: Bread pudding always.

SH: And the one at Christmas time, figgy--it was a figgy pudding used to come out. But it wasn’t figgy pudding, it was raisin, eh?

MIH: Yeah, plumpwood they called it.

SH: Yeah, but I think it was raisin. I think, eh? Yeah. And it was in a bag and boiled in water for a long time, eh. [inaudible whispering, something about plums]

MIH: Well, yeah. There’s stuff in there, all right.

SH: But there’s no plums in there, eh?

MEH: No. Just raisins.

SH: Raisins.

RM: Like kind of a, yeah, mince…mince-meat pie then.

SH: Well, it… [pause]

RM: Plum pudding, okay. And this was a traditional that you ate at Christmas time.

MEH: Yeah.

RM: Yeah. And this is her recipe?

MEH: Yeah, that’s about the way that my mother made it. Yeah.

RM: Okay, this--

MEH: Yeah, I guess I didn’t know how to tell.

RM: The sauce.

MEH: Yeah, white sauce.

Transcript at 23 minutes and 55 seconds: (23:55)

RM: Were there any--like say, at Christmas time--were there any special foods you ate or things that you did?

SH: I do know that the top gun going down the stairs was Mabel, eh? She used to leap (??), but I don’t remember much of that because she was gone while I was still real young. But we slept upstairs. I slept in the same bed as these two guys. They used to freeze me to death. They’d both roll that way, and the bloody blanket would be that high above me, and I would be trying to pull it down and--but Christmas time, yeah, it was downstairs. I remember the Christmas tree. I don't remember any of the gifts we got because it was never a lot. Oh, one of the other cousin Jenny’s, her saying was always, “You do that for me, I’ll give you an orange for Christmas,” “I’ll give you an orange for Christmas.” And all summer, she would be telling you that. If you do this for me, I’ll give you an orange for Christmas. I don’t think I ever got that orange for Christmas. [laughs]

MEH: Christmas is coming.

SH: Yeah, it’s always coming. Yeah.

MIH: I remember--talking about bedding--I used to holler downstairs, “Mom, Merton is taking all the blankets!”

MEH: Oh, was I? I was mean, eh?

MIH: Yep. If you’re gonna be mean, your father’s gonna be up there with his belt.

MEH: Speaking of that belt, I got that one time. Him and I were--we slept at the top of the stairs.

MIH: It wasn’t your fault, eh.

MEH: No, I was just laying in my own bed. It was Sunday, and my ma said, “Time to get up for church!” And I said, “We ain’t going.” And I heard him hit the bottom of the stairs, and I heard snick when the belt come off, and Bobby jumped over the railing and got away clean and I didn’t. I felt the belt. And there was never again that I say, “I ain’t going.” [laughs]

RM: Now, how old were you at the time?

MEH: Oh, I suppose eight or nine.

Transcript at 26 minutes and 9 seconds: (26:09)

RM: Now, which church did you attend?

MEH: Methodist.

RM: Was there just one?

MEH: Downtown Negaunee there. Yeah, that’s the only Methodist church down there.

RM: And then everybody just--did you have a car?

MEH: Never had a car. My parents never owned a car, ever.

RM: So, everything was just--you just walked from--

MEH: Yeah.

RM: From here?

MEH: Yeah, and he walked to work every day with his bucket and off he went.

Transcript at 26 minutes and 33 seconds: (26:33)

RM: Now, talking about the area where you lived here and all, were there locations around here?

MEH: This was--what was this one over here? There were different locations, but I--there was Ann Street Location.

RM: Okay, yeah.

MEH: And everybody just seemed to stay in their own neck of the woods, eh.

MIH: There was Cornish town.

MEH: Oh, yeah. There was Cornish town up there by the--

MIH: By the monument.

MEH: Yeah.

RM: By where?

MIH: There was a monument up there, a mining monument.

SH: As a matter of fact, you came past it up to Beverly Hills [neighborhood in Negaunee].

RM: Oh, yeah.

MIH: That used to be in Cornish town. They moved it out here.

SH: Yeah.

RM: Now, Cornish town.

MEH: Yeah, yeah. That used to go right back downtown, and there was a street car track there.

Transcript at 27 minutes and 37 seconds: (27:37)

RM: Okay, and that was…then that was Cornish town, that area by Jackson Park.

MEH: Yeah, yeah.

RM: Okay, so we have Ann Street Location and then Cornish town.

MEH: Mm-hm.

RM: Was there--where did [Dominic] Jacobetti live?

MEH: Puga [phonetic spelling]?

RM: [says something inaudible]

MIH: Puga, where does he live?

MEH: Oh, other locations there. There was Sunrise Location, which would be--

MIH: Just out of town.

MEH: Yeah, go up towards--

MIH: Palmer.

MEH: Yeah, go up towards Palmer.

MIH: There was a Sunrise Location. Yeah.

MEH: Yeah, there was a Sunrise Location.

RM: So, where would that be on the map?

SH: That would--

RM: There’s Ann Street.

MIH: And you turn off south to Ann Street.

SH: You can get there. Go up past the fire hall, Merty, …

MEH: Yeah.

SH: …past the fire hall and going right up to the road that goes to Ishpeming, but instead you turn left.

RM: The Tracy Mine Road?

SH: Yeah, yeah.

RM: Then there’s a thing here. Oh, here’s pat--there was a Patch Location.

SH: Yeah, Patch.

RM: That was where?

All: Puga?

RM: Puga lived.

MEH: Yeah, Puga lived in Patch Location, yeah.

RM: And that was just all these streets or just around that street.

MIH: Probably around that whole works there.

MEH: The Sunrise, you mean?

RM: No, the Patch…

MEH: Patch.

RM: …Location.

MEH: And it was a Furnace Location.

RM: And Sun--wait a minute, and Sunrise was where?

SH: That would be heading over towards Lost 40, eh? Over as you’re going towards--if you come from Ishpeming and you go all the way into Negaunee and that road bends right around and continues on--

MIH: Instead of going downtown.

SH: Yeah, instead of going downtown. And then, it gets out there toward Anns now, and then it turns left and goes over where Sunrise Location is. There’s probably 15 or 20 houses over there, eh.

MEH: Yeah, there’s—yeah, that place is gone now. It wasn’t there anymore.

SH: It’d be—what, Sunrise? Oh, yeah.

MEH: Is it there?

SH: Yeah. Is that where Ray Louma [phonetic spelling] used to live, over there? I just came through there yest--

MIH: Oh, that’s--

SH: That’s a different one? Sunrise is where the school used to be?

MIH: Didn’t Spencer [phonetic spelling] live over there?

MEH: Yeah, Spencer lived at Sunrise, yeah.

Recording note: [microphone rustling]

RM: [says something inaudible]

SH: I don’t need glasses, but… Let me see, we’re…we’re going to Ishpeming where, right here? Tracy mine Road. Okay, they don’t have the southern road on here. There’s Patch.

RM: Patch Location.

MEH: But anyway, it goes out here because it goes around and hits Buffalo right here.

RM: Oh. Oh. Oh, I see. So, there’s a road not on it.

MEH: Yeah, there’s a road that’s not on here.

RM: Okay.

MEH: And it was right off in there somewhere.

RM: Okay. Sunrise, okay. And then, what would--you say there was a Buffalo Location?

SH: There was a Buffalo location. I just saw a Buffalo Road in here, Buffalo Road…

MIH: [says something inaudible] It’s down in here more. [says something inaudible]

SH: It’s right in here, Buffalo.

RM: Okay. At the end, sort of, where the tracks are.

SH: Yeah. Yeah, that comes off of 480 and Ann Street and goes over to Rheinonen Road [phonetic spelling].

MEH: That’s over by Buffalo, isn’t it?

SH: Yeah, it’s past this a little bit. You can’t quite see it.

RM: Oh, okay. So, we have Ann Street Location, Cornish town, Sunrise Location, Patch Location, Buffalo Location. Any others?

SH: There was a Furnace Location right behind the fire hall, eh?

RM: I don’t know where the fire hall—

SH: As a matter of fact, there was a furnace there, that…that brick one. Remember that? There was another road that went to the Tracy Mine right there. It was probably that senior citizens’ apartment.

MIH: I was out of circulation during some of this.

SH: Yeah.

MIH: What about Belleview [phonetic spelling]?

MEH: Yeah, that was a little bit out of town, too, down by--close to Sunrise.

SH: Oh. Was that Bella View [phonetic spelling] down there where what’s his face lives?

MEH: No.

MIH: What about the Lost 40…

SH: Let’s--

MIH: …which was never documented in the books?

SH: I thought it was. The Lost 40, actually, that’s was because of the bending of the earth. They lost ground each--I forget how it went. The--as the earth bent and the lines came together, the 40s got kind of squeezed, and there was one out there called the Lost 40 that really didn’t belong to anybody, I guess, eh?

MIH: Never got recorded.

SH: Yeah.

RM: Oh, but it was a piece of land.

SH: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MIH: It was a forty of land. Everybody went out there to cut the firewood.

MEH: Yeah.

RM: But no one lived on it, I mean. It was just for--

SH: No, nobody lived on it.

Transcript at 34 minutes and 9 seconds: (34:09)

RM: Just…just for firewood.

SH: Yeah.

RM: Oh, okay.

SH: Nobody lived on it.

RM: And were there--at all these places like Ann Street Location had--what mines were around there?

MEH: Athens Mine was right by Ann Street.

RM: Okay. And across the road was what, Negaunee?

MEH: Negaunee Mine, yeah.

MIH: The Negaunee Mine.

MEH: That’s right, yeah.

RM: And Cornish town?

MEH: Cornish town, there was no mine there.

SH: Yeah. Jackson Mine was up that way! Wasn’t it?

MEH: Jackson?

SH: Yeah.

MIH: Barnes and Hecker.

MEH: That wasn’t around here. That was outside.

MEH: Outside of Ishpeming, yeah.

RM: And how about Sunrise Location?

MEH: Mary Charlotte, Mary Charlotte, Mary Charlotte Mine.

MIH: I went down in that one when there was a reopening with Dayton Kellen [phonetic spelling] and his father--or it was Bub Kellen [phonetic spelling] and his father.

RM: To the Mary Charlotte?

MIH: He went down there to start up one of the pumps.

RM: And Patch Location?

SH: That’s--

MEH: We didn’t really know a lot about the Patch Location. [whole uncertain phrase]

MIH: No, we never got that far.

RM: And Buffalo Location?

SH: Buffalo Location, there wasn’t very many houses out there. It was up beyond Buffalo Hill, they called it. It was a rise of ground with a few houses up on it.

RM: So there wasn’t a mine?

SH: There’s old mine pits there. The mine that was there—see, I don’t know. Going way back now, there was the Lucky Star, the Lucky Star Mine, and the kids used to swim in them pits, [inaudible word]. The pits were from the Lucky Star Mine. Remember the shaft house with the lucky star on top of it?

MIH: Yeah.

SH: It was over here by Ann Street someplace, but you don’t ever hear much talk about it, eh. The Lucky Star.

Transcript at 36 minutes and 31 seconds: (36:31)

MIH: There’s another thing, what about the Archibald holdings?

SH: Oh, that was in Palmer now.

MIH: That was in Palmer.

RM: Now, were there a lot of mines out in Palmer?

SH: No, I think there was one right in Palmer, the Archibald.

RM: And then eventually CCI bought that and then developed the Empire from that.

MIH: Yup.

RM: Do you remember back when you were younger the Verasa [phonetic spelling] Mine?

SH: Vrasa?

MIH: Vrasa?

RM: Maybe that was the way they pronounced it.

SH: V-R-A-S-A.

RM: Yeah.

SH: Vrasa Mine?

RM: Yeah. Vrasa Mine.

SH: The only thing we ever saw of the Vrasa Mine was a shaft. There was nothing built up over it when we seen it. There was a shaft there. And as far as we could see, there was some water in that old shaft over there, and now they put a fence around it. And there was only one little ore pile there, right Mil?

MEH: Yeah.

SH: Down in the Vrasa where we hung rabbits.

MIH: Yeah.

SH: The Vrasa Mine?

MIH: Oh, yeah.

SH: And it was right by Vrasa’s farm.

RM: And that was located where?

SH: Just over Negaunee here, east. Just between--halfway between here and the Carp River.

MEH: If you went down the road to the cemetery, Negaunee cemetery, …

RM: Yeah.

MEH: …it would be to the right of that. When you get down to the bottom of the hill, eh, …

RM: Yeah.

MEH: …then to the right.

MIH: Go over the railroad tracks.

MEH: Yeah. Go down the road to the cemetery.

RM: Yeah, so you go around the nursing home…

MEH: Yeah.

RM: …and you take that road. Okay.

SH: Yeah, go all the way down, down to the bottom of the hill.

RM: Yeah, and then you cross the Carp River.

MEH: No, not quite to the bottom.

SH: Yeah, that’s right.

MEH: Not quite to the bottom of the hill, Sidney. Right by Hopp’s [phonetic spelling] farm.

Recording note: [someone says something inaudible]

SH: Yeah, it would be before you would get to the bottom of the hill. Long before the Carp River, there was a--this road here used to go down that way, but it was cut off.

MEH: Cherry Street here used to go right past it, and the mine was probably hardly half of a mile, eh.

MIH: Hardly half of a mile.

MEH: It was only a mile out of town here at that.

Transcript at 39 minutes and 4 seconds: (39:04)

RM: That was one of the few mines that was owned by an Italian.

SH: Vrasa?

RM: Yeah.

SH: Vrasa Mine, yeah.

RM: And it never amounted to anything.

MEH: You can go down there, and there’s places where—well, there is that little ore stock there, and there’s some places where there were ore stocks but they leveled it all out. But they weren’t very big.

RM: Yeah.

SH: There’s a the Vrasa family in Negaunee today.

RM: Yeah. And they were related to the Barcettis [phonetic spelling. Or possibly Marketty?].

MEH: Pete Vrasa was that last one that we knew that we talked to, and he is the one when we were down there by that old shaft and we were carrying big boulders and dropping them down that shaft, and Pete come. He says--leaned over and looking in there. He said, “You shouldn’t do that. You don’t know,” he said, “You don’t know what’s down there. It might cave away.” [all laugh] And we were dropping them big boulders down there.

RM: Yeah.

MEH: And Pete come there and leaned on it with us, on the cribbing there, around there, and looking down there and said, “You shouldn’t do that.”

SH: Yeah, we were just talking about a deal like that yesterday with the bunch that went out west after the Tracy shut down. They had a close run. It caved in underneath them in the shaft.

Transcript at 40 minutes and 27 seconds: (40:27)

RM: Now, when you were growing up, were there--I don’t want to say a lot of people--were there people that left Negaunee and went out west to mine to resettle, anything like that?

SH: As far as I know nobody went anywhere, did they?

MEH: No.

SH: As a matter of fact, you’re born on Case Street, you grew up on Case Street, and you died on Case Street the same way. Nobody went anywhere.

MEH: Some of the girls left. The girls moved out. The guys stayed here and worked, but the sisters moved out. Unless they married somebody here, you know, that wouldn’t work.

SH: Yeah, that’s right. Mary Ellen and Mabel--

MEH: Mitzi, they all moved out, but the guys stayed here.

SH: And even when we were growing up, we stayed on Case Street, eh? Very seldom we rambled over all the way over to Ann Street, you know. Never came over here to Cherry Street, eh? Very seldom.

MIH: [says something inaudible]

SH: Yeah, that’s right.

MIH: Merty, is that the old Negaunee Mine shaft where they put a drift in to from the New Negaunee Mine and put up that big air fan?

MEH: Yeah, that sucked--remember that fire down there in that field that sucked all that smoke?

MIH: All the smoke into the mine. That fan was, what, about eight feet high?

MEH: Yeah, it was big.

MIH: That had a screen built in front of it so nothing could get in there. But when we went down, there was lots of times there were birds that flying out or bats, they couldn’t pull away from that suction and they wound up against the screen.

RM: So you’d go down and collect them?

MIH: [laughs] No, I won’t tell you the devilishment we got into down there one time. [all laugh]

MEH: That’s what caused that--remember that Roy Thomas [phonetic spelling] shook that pole with a guide wire just for the heck of it, shaking it and shaking it, and the wires got crossed up there and there was fire flying off and all the way up to the Negaunee Mine and off of the shaft house. There was fire flying off of there. Boy, that was fun!

MIH: We got out of there.

MEH: Mr. Cucchi [phonetic spelling] was working inside there at that time at the Old Negaunee Mine, and he knew who done it, but he didn’t say nothing. He never said nothing. They were repairing the shaft for an aerial, and he was running the hoist from that old shaft, the old Negaunee Mine.

MIH: Who was it that went up there with a pair of dikes (??), side covers, and got knocked off the pole there trying to steal copper wire?

MEH: I don’t know about that one.

SH: Oh, smart.

Transcript at 43 minutes and 28 seconds: (43:28)

RM: It was a live wire?

SH: That was smart.

MIH: No, it was a live that went to the old Negaunee Mine.

RM: Oh. And what happened to them?

MIH: Got knocked off the pole, but it melted the jaws off the pliers. He didn’t even get hurt, I don’t think.

RM: You’re just lucky to survive.

MIH: Lucky it wasn’t grounded.

SH: I can recall up on Case Street, my dad would be out in the middle of the street, and I would be out there playing stocking ball, which was a ball that my ma made out of rags and a stocking and she stuffed the rags in the bottom of the stocking and pulled it through. Our chairs had little--

MIH: Rungs.

SH: Yeah. She would pull it through tight. Yeah, she would pull it through tight. She would cut it--

MEH: Well, she would twist it…

MIH: Twist it.

MEH: …and fold it over three or four times like that, so it’s tough. And she would put a lot of pulling and work into that ball.

SH: It was about the size of a softball, …

MEH: Yeah.

SH: …and we would play on the street with that.

MEH: Nobody had money to buy a ball.

SH: And not only that, but they weren’t dangerous. They’d bounce off a window, eh. And I remember my dad out there playing with a whole bunch of us out in the street. Kids, there were 200 kids on that block, eh? I mean, that was a long block. It went like forever.

MIH: Until the cave-ins.

SH: Yeah, until the cave-ins.

MEH: And the way we played that ball, you usually had to hit somebody with it when they were running to bases. Remember?

SH: Yeah. Yeah, to throw them out, eh.

MEH: To throw them out, you had to hit them.

SH: Yeah, that’s right.

MEH: And I remember one night Father playing with us, and he always had that pipe clenched in his teeth, and Gordon threw the ball and got the pipe. [all laugh] Father had the stem in his mouth. I remember that. Yeah, Father used to play with us.

Transcript at 45 minutes and 36 seconds: (45:36)

RM: Now, were there any other like celebrations, holidays that you used to--you might do something special, you know, in terms of your heritage?

SH: Outside of the American ones, I don’t remember.

MEH: 4th of July we always got together.

SH: Yeah.

MEH: Always. But as far as the Cousin Jack heritage, I don’t think there was.

MIH: Saturday night evening was time for baths, and you had to--Mother said, “Go get the tub, and we’ll fill it with hot water,” and everybody had to have a bath on Saturday.

SH: Nobody had a bathtub. It was one of them round tubs like this. I remember being out in it right next to the kitchen stove right there where it was a little warmer. These guys had it tougher, but I was the youngest so I could be by the stove, I guess. [laughs]

MIH: But there was one time when he got two baths.

MEH: Probably when we were small.

MIH: We were real small, and our auntie stayed with us and she was giving baths. And Merton had a bath and he went out to play, and I didn’t get mine yet. He come back in, and she grabbed him again and she said, “Oh, ye ain’t fooling me! I know you’re Milton.” She got the wrong one.

SH: Twins! She couldn’t tell them apart.

MIH: Identical twins.

MEH: I got washed twice. [MIH laughs] Twice as clean as him.

RM: And then you didn’t get one?

MIH: No!

MEH: That was when the raven started coming down.

MIH: I’ll never forget that.

MEH: Aunty Berth.

MIH: Aunty Berth.

SH: Is that who it was, Aunty Berth? She was from England. Yep.

RM: And now, was she a Leverton?

SH: She was a Lucy Stoner. Know Lucy Stoners?

RM: No.

SH: The females kept their own name instead of the male--instead of the guy. Mostly Stoners kept their--the guy changed his name to her last name. The Lucy Stoners.

MEH: Really?

SH: Yes. Lucy Stoners.

RM: And who were they, a group of people or…?

SH: No, anybody from any family could do that. When the guy married her, he changed his name to her name.

RM: Oh. And they--but they gave them this name, Lucy Stoners?

SH: Yeah, that was what they were called. They were called Lucy Stoners because of that, because I imagine a Lucy Stoner at one time was the first one to do it.

RM: And these were Cornish people or…?

SH: Yeah. Well evidently, eh.

MEH: Evidently. Lucy Stoners. Yeah.

SH: Evidently she was Pa’s sister? Aunty Berth?

MIH: You didn’t hear too much about that.

MEH: No, you didn’t hear too much about it.

SH: No, that’s the first I heard about it, yeah. But so, they had a different belief, eh?

MEH: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, Lucy Stone, and Susie didn’t--my daughter--didn’t believe it until she looked it up.

SH: Oh, really. Hm.

MIH: I think them people are a little bit frowned on, weren’t they?

SH: I suppose. Probably a little, yeah, I suppose, if you don’t do something the way everybody else does it. That’s a new one, Lucy Stoners.

Transcript at 49 minutes and 4 seconds: (49:04)

RM: Now, were there many of them or--no.

MEH: My auntie’s probably the only one I ever knew, probably the only one I ever heard of.

RM: And so, she and her husband were kind of seen as different?

MEH: Probably. I wonder who her husband was? Was his name Herbert? Uncle Herbert? I don’t know.

MIH: I believe it was.

MEH: Uncle Herbert. And was his last name Richardson [phonetic spelling]?

SH: So, he probably switched it to Holman? His [inaudible word] to Holman?

MIH: Yeah, we never heard Uncle Herbert, eh.

MEH: No, I don’t remember that.

RM: Okay. That’s interesting. Well, it’s a new--I mean, you never heard--I never heard. It’s amazing that, yeah.

SH: Yeah, Lucy Stoner. You know, my daughter didn’t believe it either when I told her about it, but she looked it up.

RM: Huh. And the--because I know some of the--like, well, Spanish and Italians will keep the former name and attach it to themselves, like you find presidents of Mexico will end up with two names and then you eventually find, oh, that--like Vicente Fox now. He has another name attached there, and it’s Fox so they would keep the family name. I know--like my aunt was from Switzerland, and she kept both names and used them, but this is…this is kind of in that tradition, but it’s a little different. It’s very interesting. Okay. I’ll have to check. Then, so your daughter checked into it and found out--under Lucy Stoner--found out--

SH: That there are Lucy Stoners.

RM: Yeah. But this was something, some tradition or something?

SH: Yeah, I don’t know what it was all about.

RM: Yeah.

SH: Yeah, that’s a new--Are you from Northern?

RM: Yeah, I teach at Northern Michigan University.

SH: I think my daughter knows you.

RM: Oh, who’s your daughter, Sidney?

SH: Susan Fizzia. [phonetic spelling]

RM: Oh, yeah. Yeah, she’s a secretary in biology.

SH: Yeah.

RM: Yeah, and… And then, there’s Joe Holman, who is your nephew. Yeah.

Transcript at 51 minutes and 35 seconds: (51:35)

RM: Let’s see. Now, did the Cornish people get together? Were there any kind of get-togethers like picnics or, you know, dances, things like that, any…?

SH: I remember being at one one time.

MIH: Jackson Park. All the Cornish people got together--or was it all the townspeople?

MEH: I don’t know. It was--was that 4th of July or what?

MIH: Yep.

SH: The--they used to stay amongst theirself because I remember the visiting that we did would be over to--the names, there was always Cousin Jacks that we went to visit at night.

MIH: Phillips [phonetic spelling].

SH: Phillips for one and then Chapmans [phonetic spelling, or possible Chatman?] over here.

MIH: Yeah, [inaudible word] Chapman.

SH: Yeah, and those were the people who my parents would want to visit. I was so small, [inaudible phrase] so it was always Cousin Jacks, so I stuck pretty close. And there was an attitude about the Catholics at that time, too. It took my parents years before they could accept the fact that Catholics are real people, you know. And my best friends, some of them were Catholics.

MEH: I married one.

SH: Yeah. Yeah, so did I.

Transcript at 53 minutes and 0 seconds: (53:00)

RM: Now, what did your parents think of that?

SH: Well, I don’t know about the time that you got married, maybe he was still a little hedgy.

MEH: Well, all my father says was, “Don’t you bring that girl in this house.”

SH: [laughs] But by the time I got married, it was acceptable by the time I got married.

RM: But then, what happened with you?

MEH: It got acceptable in a short time. They liked my wife.

RM: Yeah.

SH: Yeah, they found out that Catholics are real people.

RM: So, it was just kind of part of the process, the Americanization process...

SH: Yeah.

RM: …that--

SH: Yeah, like you see over there where they’re shooting each other, here it broke it down. And I thought about that many times when I see that going on over there, I thought, “Jesus, let’s get a bigger country and stick them all in there.”

RM: Yeah, because I know--you know, they often tell stories—we’re talking about the tensions between the Cornish and the other ethnic groups. Do you ever remember hostilities? And they talk about these earlier between the Cornish and the Irish. Was that--in your time, was that a--

MIH: No.

SH: Yeah, yeah.

MIH: I never knew anybody here that--

SH: If they were Catholic, there was. Yeah, there was hostility, but…but it wasn’t… In our family, it wasn’t expressed. It was more or less felt, you know. You could feel that you don’t go and associate with them. And, you know, Johns--what nationality would Johns be?

MEH: English.

SH: English? They were Catholic. So—yeah, they were. Diane was Catholic, and Margaret, and they just…you just knew—well, if I thought a little more, I could probably remember a few of the things they would say about their Catholics.

MIH: Their mother must have been Catholic then.

SH: Oh, yeah.

MIH: Paavolas [phonetic spelling] was Irish Catholic.

SH: Yeah.

MIH: We got along with them, our neighbors on Case Street.

SH: Yeah, that was something, eh. Yeah.

RM: Was that sort of a rare thing?

SH: Yeah.

Transcript at 55 minutes and 8 seconds: (55:08)

RM: So, when did a lot of this kind of religious tension then sort of—[inaudible crosstalk]

SH: As we started growing up and bumping into different kids in school, probably. You know, we started associating with them, started going fishing with them and that kind of stuff, sling shots together and, you know. [laughs]

RM: And then you’d come home and tell your mother that you were with so and so and…

SH: Yeah, yeah.

RM: …and nothing had happened to you.

SH: Yeah, that’s right. And after a while, obviously, they started easing up on it because they didn’t care if I went over there after a while, you know, over to visit the Johns.

RM: Mm-hm. So, this would have been like, what--you said you were born in 1930, 1940s?

SH: Yeah. Yeah, in—before, I suppose, eight, ten years old.

RM: Uh-huh. Was that true with the two of you?

MIH: Yeah.

MEH: We had--we had everybody for our friends though, Finnish and Swedes and Irish,

SH: A lot of Finns. Yeah.

MEH: Yeah, they were all our friends.

MIH: Especially when we went out to bush. Lots of these kids were never used to going out to bush and they wanted to come along, so we welcomed them along. And that’s the way we always got away with them. We never ever put anybody out.

RM: And you were going out, what, hunting and…?

SH: Hunting and fishing or just going out to bush.

MEH: Either hunting or going out to bush and build a camp or--

MIH: Going fishing or catching chipmunks, a better chipmunk trap.

MEH: Yeah. Yeah, we used to build chipmunk traps.

RM: What are those?

MEH: A chippy?

RM: Yeah—No, but I mean the traps.

MEH: Oh, it would be a wooden trap that they’d go in there and grab something and—clunk--down come the door.

MIH: It was made about sixteen inches long by about four inches wide and drove a hole through the top, put a wire down through there, put a hook inside, then put a stand pipe on it with the door with a wooden string, and you wind that door up on that string and put it over that hunk of wood and hook it to that hook and you had bait inside. The chipmunk would go in there and pull on that door.

MEH: Then, you’d get him out and put a collar on him and have him in your pocket.

MIH: Yep. [laughs]

MEH: Yeah. And then sister Mabel steps on his upstairs in the bedroom.

SH: Mabel stepped on it and--

MEH: Squashed it. [all laugh]

SH: Screeching up there! It was a chipmunk.

RM: This was obviously a surprise for her. [all laugh]

SH: It was a surprise.

Transcript at 57 minutes and 48 seconds: (57:48)

RM: And so, how long would you keep them then, just--

SH: Oh, a long time. I mean… I mean, you’d take them. There’d be a feeder. You’d feed them, you know, and they’d come out and get something to eat and go back in your pocket.

MEH: We’d never keep them in through the winter.

RM: Yeah, no.

MEH: Never keep them through the winter.

RM: But you’d just keep them for a while in the summer time.

MEH: A pet. Yeah.

MIH: That one time, what did we keep through the winter in the bathtub up in the barn? We had a hay barn in our [inaudible word].

MEH: All we had there was cottontails. Wasn’t there?

MIH: We filled that half of sand and then filled the barn with cedar—yeah, cottontail rabbits--and we made poles down in the sand for the winter time and put hutches down under there. And of course, they filled them up with hay and that, and we kept them over the winter.

RM: Oh, and these were all buried? The hutches were buried?

MIH: In the bathtub upstairs in the barn.

MEH: In the bed of the bathtub up there.

RM: And they kept warm then.

MIH: Yeah, there was enough hay in the barn so that it didn’t freeze up there.

RM: Yeah, yeah.

MIH: There were horses down below, and a lot of heat come up from the horses.

RM: Yeah, yeah.

MEH: Yeah, in them good old days, the horses--there was never no cars running in winter time, just the horses. They done all the plowing that was done.

SH: The sidewalk. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

MIH: And one time--I don’t know. We shouldn’t mention no names. Somebody reached in through the manure window next door and took a knife and slit a horse open. And when I went in there to watch him sew it up--

MEH: That was Bill. Bill done that.

MIH: Yeah. But they strapped that horse sideways right to two posts in the barn, and then they went after him and sewed him up. [laughs] Beautiful white horse, but he was all red.

MEH: Cook? Thomas and Grandpa’s horse.

RM: Oh.

MEH: Our neighbors.

Transcript at 59 minutes and 49 seconds: (59:49)

RM: So, there were a lot of pranks and similar activities then, some of them rather serious.

MEH: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes.

MIH: Well, that was somebody was mad at somebody.

MEH: Got fired…

MIH: Yeah.

MEH: …from the store.

MIH: From the store.

RM: Oh. And this was, what, in a livery stable? The horse was in a private stable…

MEH: Barn.

RM: …or just his barn?

MEH: Just a hay barn, you know. Probably had two or three horses in there for delivery purposes from the store.

RM: Oh.

MEH: They were delivery horses.

RM: Whose store was it?

MEH: Thomas Brothers in Negaunee.

Transcript at 1 hour, 0 minutes, and 26 seconds: (1:00:26)

RM: Now, were there in Negaunee--maybe the Thomas Brothers even--were there Finnish—not Finnish--Cornish store owners in town in Negaunee?

SH: Thomas was… Thomas was Welsh, was he?

RM: And he was a big--he had a large store?

MEH: Yeah, he had--him and his brother Ryan (??)--they had all the meat and everything, you know.

MIH: How about the Collinses, what nationality were they?

SH: That’s Cousin Jack. Yeah, they were English.

MIH: There was four of them, I think, that had stores. I think.

SH: Yeah, that’s right.

MEH: Sheldon was one, eh?

MIH: Years ago, they didn’t have electric lights. They had gas lamps. They let them down on a chain, and they were--you would just hook them back up again, pull them up on a chain and lock it to the wall. And I don’t know if I can remember or not. There was grocery stores and there was meat markets. You didn’t buy no meat in the grocery store. Out north here about a mile was the slaughter house--

MEH: Oh, yeah.

Recording note: [tape cuts out]